Question The Penance Factor

This is the conclusion of the Fey bit of the mini-arc that starts with Hekate's clone, frame-up for murder in Riddle of Sappho, and the discussions about how to deal with her. So yes, it's complete.

(For now. I MAY write more Fey stuff if Maggie doesn't thump me with a marlin or a bluefin tuna. No, wait, I AM writing more Fey stuff in a summer adventure! Silly me for forgetting... )

If she lets you keep the fish getting hit by one of those would be a good deal. Those fish can make a lot of meals.

I would not be surprised if someone whispers in Fey's ear to ask Jadis to look at the "lawsuit" papers. And Jadis tells her they are bogus. I'd also like to see what happens if Fey calls Daddy.

Not sure this fits here, but I would not be surprised if a subplot developed to remove Carson from the headmistress position. Two students dead and one missing within a week? She must be incompetent.

Okay. Finished the story.

My take is that, of course, Mrs. Carson needed to take down Nikki several notches. Be it eating crow or humble pie, the girl needed to learn of her arrogance she had been flaunting. Where to hit her the most appears to have been the pocket book.

Was or is the lawsuit real? We don't really know at this time as Nikki hasn't reached that part of the stage yet. The foremost matter is that she begins to 'see' what she was becoming. Her astral spirit was having a big influence on her character in that she was beginning to be drawn past the line of good to evil. She may not have seen it as Nikki justified her actions. The incident would be the beginning steps of where how far do we cross such boundaries.

Is the document real? Perhaps or perhaps its the best forgery allowed. That's open to speculation. If presented to a lawyer I'm sure the lawyer will verify its authenticity by checking court dockets to insure it was properly filed. Thus it was imperative that Ayla 'not' have lawyers become involved.

With Mrs. Carson also 'freezing' Nikki's assets she deprived the girl of doing her own set of legal work thus having her become reliant on Ayla for help.

Another item to consider was having Nikki removed from 'combat' training. Perhaps the group had become complacent in their training. Relying to heavily on certain people without needing to 'learn' to depend upon their own training. In other words they to were becoming arrogant themselves. To reliant on one anothers skills thus depriving them of 'expanding' their own.

Ayla was also being manipulated by Mrs. Carson. Perhaps Mrs. Carson needed to teach Ayla about the pitfalls of involving one self to readily with his friends. By giving into their needs he was also depriving them of life's lessons of failure. It also brought home how others can or would manipulate him against his ideas. How easily it could be done if properly executed.

The story wasn't just about Nikki and her use of an dangerous spell, it was about the consequences one must face after such actions are done and how after they leave the school they will need to rely on their own set of independence to correct their mistakes. The real pitfalls in the real world.

As there is more time left on Nikki's punishment, I'm sure more may will be done that involves the whole Kimba team and how they work together as well as solving their own set of problems without the help of others.

I also see Mrs. Carson doing some behind the scenes maneuvering of other characters. Even if she is the headmistress I'm sure she doesn't want students to turn to the dark side as they say. She's up to something and I feel that somewhere else its brewing into where it will not just affect the students but Whateley itself.

Ibi

I think the roots of your epileptic trees are too weak.

Regarding the lawsuit: really, foisting a fake lawsuit on Fey? That's just asking to be found out and lose any trust from the student body.

Yes, Carson did move to restrain Ayla. That's because with Ayla's resources in play, the chances of Nikki getting away unscathed were like, 99%. Simply stated, Ayla can out-lawyer Solicitor with his pocket change, not to mention any other means of putting pressure he has available.

But Carson can't really keep Nikki from hiring a lawyer. Hell, in any situation like this, any sane person would advise her to do so. Her parents would do so. And any "in loco parentis" power the school has is trumped up by her ACTUAL parents. So, the chances of a non-school lawyer entering the case are way better than even. And any minimally competent lawyer would quickly find out if the lawsuit didn't actually exist. In fact, it is stated that Nikki is making a counterproposal to the settlement -- and she would have to be insane to do that without a lawyer.

So faking it is too risky, and could (probably would, in fact) result in exactly the opposite result than teaching Nikki some humility -- it would lead to her distrusting any authority figures.

A better question, one implied inside the story, is "who put Solicitor to it?" As Ayla pointed out, trying to get a client by legal arm-twisting would only finish sinking his reputation. So somebody might be pushing him to do it. Somebody like, say... a certain meddling alien dragon, who thinks the Queen of the West might need to be taken down a few pegs.

But in the 2 days since she had been handed the papers she has not talked to a lawyer nor her family. She has only been advised by Ayla who 'claimed' to have contacted them for her. Ayla was also the one to advise Nikki with said lawyers to arbitrate for a better deal. So Nikki is in effect going through Ayla and not any lawyer.

Also another factor is the restriction. Nowhere was it stated that Nikki lost 'phone' privileges. Thus why hasn't she contacted her family itself concerning the matter?

As for hiring a lawyer herself, that's true, but given that her money is now frozen and she would have to be given such by Mrs. Carson why hadn't she done so? Both Ayla and Nikki are being played by Mrs. Carson.

Galahad Syndrome is a mental disorder found in Mutants
Description

Galahad Syndrome is named after Sir Galahad of the King Arthur legends. It is the disorder that causes Exemplars to fixate on a problem until THEY solve it, are physically stopped, or die trying to solve it. All Exemplars suffer from this to some extent.

Emphasis mine. Also note that in the American judicial system, any party can file a lawsuit on behalf of anyone else they wish so long as they have the money to cover the fees. And while the documents will all say Solicitor vs Nicole Reilly, what in fact may have happened is The Law Firm of John Smith on behalf of Solicitor. Solicitor may not know anything about it. And while such a suit might be 'fake' in that whoever is the true client of The Law Firm of John Smith might not be Solicitor, and that person may have no intent whatsoever on following through with the threat of legal action, or collection of any settlements, it does not make the suite 'fake' as far as the court is concerned.

Just say'n.

A valid point. It could be that a third party in filing the lawsuit without the knowledge of the Solicitor as a way to extract money, revenge as such. Just a wild speculation on my part given on how Mrs. Carson was acting. Perhaps she was just channeling her frustration also to give the conversation more meaning.

Ib12us wrote: Also another factor is the restriction. Nowhere was it stated that Nikki lost 'phone' privileges. Thus why hasn't she contacted her family itself concerning the matter?

Because she's a 14 year old girl. She also probably assumes that involving her parents would INCREASE her punishment.

As for hiring a lawyer herself, that's true, but given that her money is now frozen and she would have to be given such by Mrs. Carson why hadn't she done so? Both Ayla and Nikki are being played by Mrs. Carson.

Ayla had no reason to agree to anything. In fact, Ayla should have said, "You are a mage. I will not agree to anything since I have no idea if it will result in a Sorcerer's Contract. I know you are not being on the level with me and thus I will not enter into an agreement with you. (sentences in the story agreeing that Nikki needs to learn a lesson) and thus I will take your request under advisement and will probably uphold the letter of the request but I agree to nothing,."

There's a fair chance that such a law suit, real or not, is a death warrent for Soliciter.

Fey is unstable and could possibly go off the deap end.
Sara would have few qualms about doing something semi serious and fairly permanant. Or aranging for Paige too.
Ayla is quite capable of anything short of outright ordering his death.
Let alone some other less than social students who either consider Fey a friend or think that doing something will mean Fey owes them a favour.

Mrs. Carson is shown taking steps to avoid this, the scene with Ayla for example, but she can't stop all of the posibilities. Especially the more revengy type of actions that may occur.

Very risky.

The trial would be interesting. I can see Fey's lawyer, "What exactly did your spell do?"
Fey replies, "It returns three times the evil done by the target to the target, so if he's done no evil nothing would have happened to him."

Valentine wrote: The trial would be interesting. I can see Fey's lawyer, "What exactly did your spell do?"
Fey replies, "It returns three times the evil done by the target to the target, so if he's done no evil nothing would have happened to him."

That alone makes it a risky suit to bring.

Valentine wrote: The trial would be interesting. I can see Fey's lawyer, "What exactly did your spell do?"
Fey replies, "It returns three times the evil done by the target to the target, so if he's done no evil nothing would have happened to him."

And then she gets popped for perjury when the expert witness shows that's not how the spell works. Keep in, the spell Nikki cast is not a justice spell it has no ability to see the good or evil and a person's heart. It is a revenge spell and the revenge it is dishing out is based entirely on the perception of the person casting the spell and how you build a caster thinks the target is. Which is why it is a spell classified at least as assault and a case can be made for attempted murder. This is why the black hand is so hideously illegal to cast and has such dire consequences for those who cast it. Pretty much there is no part in this where Nikki comes out on top in a court of law and any lawyer worth their membership in the bar will tell her so.

Just so y'all know, EE did make contributions to this story, so please do not forget to thank him if you like it.

(These days, he's like my alternate brain!)

E. E. Nalley wrote:

Valentine wrote: The trial would be interesting. I can see Fey's lawyer, "What exactly did your spell do?"
Fey replies, "It returns three times the evil done by the target to the target, so if he's done no evil nothing would have happened to him."

And then she gets popped for perjury when the expert witness shows that's not how the spell works. Keep in, the spell Nikki cast is not a justice spell it has no ability to see the good or evil and a person's heart. It is a revenge spell and the revenge it is dishing out is based entirely on the perception of the person casting the spell and how you build a caster thinks the target is. Which is why it is a spell classified at least as assault and a case can be made for attempted murder. This is why the black hand is so hideously illegal to cast and has such dire consequences for those who cast it. Pretty much there is no part in this where Nikki comes out on top in a court of law and any lawyer worth their membership in the bar will tell her so.

Kind of weird, how did Nikki know about all the drugs, and other stuff that Solicitor did, because that was the effect it had on him.

Given this from the story:
Whatever energy a person puts into the world, be it positive or negative, will be returned to that person three times.

That is how Nikki defined what the spell would do.

It'd be HUGELY risky for Fey to challenge because of the illegality of the spell AND (as we hinted before) that it would reveal to the world that Mythos Magic is real and a threat - which we've hinted very strongly is kind of like UFOs - claimed to be real by some but discounted by most. A high-profile trial would make it a certainty, with unknown results to people's worldview and comfort and such.

Whether it was justified or not, once she was free of the Fool's Circle and out of immediate danger, it was no longer self-protection in ANY way. As Carson put it in an earlier story, "why couldn't she have just gutted the bitch?"

Yeah. I personally think that Fey could probably beat the charge (Fey could argue that she wasn't out of immediate danger until after the base exploded, and casting the spell forced Hekate to flee, which gave her a chance to escape, and it couldn't be rescinded afterwards), but doing so would bring all sorts of negative attention on her, and it would not end well for her. Even if she wins, she still loses.

Given from what I've read about Black Hand it goes along the lines of Avada Kedavra in which is also a feared and dark spell cast. If found out, mages as well as many others may find themselves rounded up out of fear and summarily executed. This is of course speculation and I'm sure even Fey would understand the need to never divulge such a dangerous spell as well as others I'm sure.

As been noted the spell doesn't care who casts it only that its meant to serve its purpose. Given that if Fey were to go to trial I'm sure it would be lengthy process as well as trying for not just her but for others who would be called upon as witnesses. And then there's the MCO who would be involved as well as I'm sure other agencies out to get them. This would also put her parents in the unwanted spotlight I'm sure.

Wether Fey could prove the charges of self-defense would be up to interpretation as those that are familiar with the Fools circle will be used to testify thus bringing out more unwanted attention for them.

elrodw wrote: It'd be HUGELY risky for Fey to challenge because of the illegality of the spell AND (as we hinted before) that it would reveal to the world that Mythos Magic is real and a threat - which we've hinted very strongly is kind of like UFOs - claimed to be real by some but discounted by most. A high-profile trial would make it a certainty, with unknown results to people's worldview and comfort and such.

Whether it was justified or not, once she was free of the Fool's Circle and out of immediate danger, it was no longer self-protection in ANY way. As Carson put it in an earlier story, "why couldn't she have just gutted the bitch?"

If Fey could have just gutted her, then I am sure she would have. It's an easy thing for Carson to say, but she wasn't there trying to keep four people alive, against a base full of well armed goons, an experienced spell caster, and a self destruct mechanism. If Cav and Skybolt were anywhere near sane, then likely they could have just offed Hekate...

BTW just where did Nikki learn the curse? Aung didn't seem to teach it to her.

Valentine wrote:

elrodw wrote: It'd be HUGELY risky for Fey to challenge because of the illegality of the spell AND (as we hinted before) that it would reveal to the world that Mythos Magic is real and a threat - which we've hinted very strongly is kind of like UFOs - claimed to be real by some but discounted by most. A high-profile trial would make it a certainty, with unknown results to people's worldview and comfort and such.

Whether it was justified or not, once she was free of the Fool's Circle and out of immediate danger, it was no longer self-protection in ANY way. As Carson put it in an earlier story, "why couldn't she have just gutted the bitch?"

If Fey could have just gutted her, then I am sure she would have. It's an easy thing for Carson to say, but she wasn't there trying to keep four people alive, against a base full of well armed goons, an experienced spell caster, and a self destruct mechanism. If Cav and Skybolt were anywhere near sane, then likely they could have just offed Hekate...

BTW just where did Nikki learn the curse? Aung didn't seem to teach it to her.

I would put that down as wishful thinking given the trouble that is now stirred up.

Valentine wrote: BTW just where did Nikki learn the curse? Aung didn't seem to teach it to her.

I'd guess that Aung was feeding her the exact memories necessary to cast it.

Here are the comments I came up with while reading through the story and basic thoughts.

And fallout from Hekate's little scheme begins. Nikki has learned the lesson of not to annoy the headmistress when she already in a mood well. And using Aunghadhail against Nikki like that, too far, Mrs. Carson. She might not be a queen, but the loss of Aunghadhail and who caused it, that is like tearing open a wound for Nikki.

And it swings back to Nikki not seeing their side or judging based on her limited knowledge of all the facts. Carson is right, with something like this ignorance of the law isn't an excuse. And unfortunately any judge would see it that way as well. And unfortunately as well, the settlement and deal Mrs. Carson spelled out for her is about the best she can get out of this. The little weasel could lie on the stand and state he didn't know he was handing Nikki over to Hekate to be enslaved and it was just a business deal gone bad for him.

And we know that Carson is trying to do what is right for Nikki, but all the poor girl sees is another adult taking the side of the wrong party in her eyes. This is going to be brutal on the poor girl and everyone around her before she adjust. And going all out by blocking Ayla from helping, talk about tough love.

And Ayla surprising Carson, wonder how many more times before graduating that going to happen. But when put in terms the way Ayla said it, anyone would understand that Nikki needs to learn how to be responsible with her magic. Aunghadhail's lessons drilled into her that magic was her birthright and as a queen she had the right to do as she pleases, for the good of herself and her people. She ignored the fact the world had moved on and rules and laws are in place now which have to be followed. And now it is biting Nikki in the butt.

Meeting with Wyatt, I can already see where this is going. And one thing you can say for Kodiak, he gets to the point. Okay, losing Aunghadhail was traumatic for Nikki and a blow for everyone who cared about her. But if she was turning Nikki into someone like she was, it is best in the long run that her influence on Nikki is gone. A teenage girl turned into an arrogant and cruel queen, she might have stopped listening to even her best friends' advice if they disagreed with her.

And the pain it is causing her teammates, poor Ayla stuck in the middle, and Jade and Toni adding fuel to the fire of Nikki's belief that she is completely in the right. If Carson didn't have years of experience dealing with teens, she would have lost her mind by now, just from the freshmen who showed up this year.

That phone call, it sounds like they are going further than just a lesson here. Having Ayla suggest negotiating a better settlement, sounds like Carson wants Nikki to stew for a while and learn her lesson but also wants the little weasel suing her to be taught one as well.

Native American seductress, poor Kayda will have even the non-lesbian girls checking her out after they see these photos. And Carson not giving her a choice one which modeling contracts she gets to choice, she has to know how this would look to Nikki or anyone who heard the details of the settlement. All in all, it looks bad for Carson reputation right there. But I will continue reading see if she had more in mind than it first appears to be.

Everything Carson is doing or allowing to happen to Nikki, she is trying to break her out of her stubborn, arrogant streak she picked up from Aunghadhail. At least that is how it appears to be, because if not then Carson has some explaining to do. At least Toni realizes Nikki needs more than her comfort right now, like a true friend.

If Wyatt and Kodiak can't get through to Nikki about how bad what she did was, nothing will. For a long time now she has refused to see her own faults in her actions, no matter what anyone else pointed out. And the blunt truth from Kodiak hurts, yet is what she needs to hear. And the veil has been lifted, as Nikki finally wishes to know what Aunghadhail was really like. It is about time, always felt like after the 1st story and Aunghadhail helping Nick adjust to becoming Nikki that she never questioned anything the ancient queen told her.

Dang, I knew Aungy was cold and more than a bit cruel, but what Kodiak said. And she was molding Nikki to be like her. *shudders* And hearing the truth herself about how Aunghadhail was making her more like her, seeing her cry in shock and afraid she has lost herself forever, hurt to read. But a good hurt, as you know it is good writing to get that kind of emotional response. And nice to know she is listening to others about Carson actually caring about her and believing she will succeed.

Very nice analysis. Counterpoints:

Yes, Carson is in a very tight spot. She has to punish Fey for the Black Hand spell, but if she lets Fey and/or TK know that Hekate is still alive, it's apt to get out of hand again. So what does she do?

a) if they don't do anything, then it looks like Fey gets away with murder
b) if the clone/demon-thingy had been more perfect, Fey would be charged with murder and on the run or incarcerated
c) if they reveal to Fey or TK that Hekate is still alive and Fey didn't commit murder, does Fey learn a lesson, or does TK go bat-crap crazy hunting down Hekate and commit REAL murder?

So it's a very bad situation for Carson and the Magic Arts department. Believe me, we wrestled with a LOT of alternatives of how to deal with this. It was NOT easy. Carson is in a pickle here; if you recall in Riddle of Sappho about this, she said she would call a meeting of the trustees.

Now what are the possibilities?
1) it's a total ruse by Carson to make Fey sweat without knowing that Hekate is still alive.
2) it's a ruse, by Tywyswyr to make Fey sweat
3) there really IS a lawsuit brought by someone else on behalf of the Solicitor
4) there really IS a lawsuit brought by the Solicitor.

In any of the 4 cases, Fey gets punished in one way or another without realizing Hekate is still alive (see the continuing revenge stuff above).

I leave the rest for speculation about what went down, why, and what the ramifications are.

Are we redoing all the characters that started Whateley? Hell no. But Fey was very overpowered, and Aungy was arrogant as hell. Fey needed toning down or removing, and if we offed her, we'd have to move and change our names. And we don't have all the writers we had back then. Unless we tone Fey (and some of the others down), the current group of writers will have to "lose" more characters, which won't go over well with the fans. TK has to take a lower profile. You may not like how we choose to deal with it, but we HAVE to deal with it.

I concur, a very nicely done analysts Dreamer /Claps /bows.

Forgot one item. On the phone call to Ayla.

Ayla knows who it is. And he knows from the caller ID that he's being played. He's told to have Fey negotiate, which means Ayla's 'fake' legal team will be occupied. Why? What good would come out of things being tied up in negotiation for a while? Is there any benefit to Nikki? Besides having it more genuinely appear that Ayla's 'fake' lawyers are helping and thus taking guilt off Ayla? And maybe getting Nikki a little better allowance so she doesn't feel so bad?

There are other reasons that could be why Ayla was so directed. Can you think of some?

As to how tough this was, it was supposed to appear in 2 previous stories, but EE and I kind of wrote ourselves into a corner, and we had to really work to figure out a logical way out of it. So ... yeah, this story grew out of that need. Like I said in another place, EE put as much into this as I did. He deserves a lot of credit, too.

I see this as the best of a bad situation for you guys as writers. It's not perfect, it's not as clean as it could be, but it works and it's not like you're throwing a tantrum and throwing away the character.
So I'll be interested in seeing how Hekate and Fey interact in the future, without thinking that Fey can just wave a hand and make her go kablooey.

One big thing if Ayla's lawyers are negotiating, then no one is looking into the case to see if it is real.

In the short term, TK has learned that they can't rely on just one person for everything, which is why Hank and Ayla are talking about running sims whilst rotating teams members out. Better tactics.

But the situation with Ayla is a longer term lesson, so that TK don't end up relying on Ayla's resources for everything. Better strategy.

It's a harsh approach to learning, but it beats the alternative.

An interesting story thread would be Whateley Admin applying this sort of lessons to the Cape Squad, or the Bad Seeds, just like they've been trying to do with the Spy Kids in Diamonds.

Fine lines...

I actually 'feel' for you writers in having to work extra hard in keeping things together. Its, I'm sure, a hard task in both thought and love for the site. Not an easy one as you all are trying to work back story characters and such. So to you Elrod, E.E. and others I tip my thankful hat to you all.

Not having caught up on the back history I can only assume that your ideas of toning down certain characters, killing off others or having to push them aside reluctantly is a thankless job.

As much as I've been joking around on this site, I do hope to contribute as I learn more of critique and analyzing your stories and putting it all together.

I look forward to each of story that comes my way.

So too all of you take a much needed bow.

Ibi

For those suggesting Nikki's parents could get her out, I'm pretty sure Mrs. Carson already is working with them.

No way a lawsuit against an underaged kid goes to the school, no matter what limited guardianship the school has, if this is real, the paperwork got originally filed with her parents, and they and Mrs. Carson together came up with this aproach.

Nikkie's Dad is too well connected, and has too much experience, not to know how bad things are getting for Nikki, it's entirely legitimate that he and Mrs. Carson are playing this together to help bring Nikki around. Staying out of it and letting Mrs. Carson be the 'Big Bad Wolf' allows him to maintain a close relationship with Nikki, but I'd be surprised if Mrs Carson isn't keeping him very closely informed, probably day by day, about what is happening.

elrodw wrote: Are we redoing all the characters that started Whateley? Hell no. But Fey was very overpowered, and Aungy was arrogant as hell. Fey needed toning down or removing, and if we offed her, we'd have to move and change our names. And we don't have all the writers we had back then. Unless we tone Fey (and some of the others down), the current group of writers will have to "lose" more characters, which won't go over well with the fans. TK has to take a lower profile. You may not like how we choose to deal with it, but we HAVE to deal with it.

I understand the reasons for doing this, Fey's power level always seemed way OP from the rest of the setting, with the exception of Tennyo perhaps and even her powers are more limited than magic of Fey's level with Aunghadhail on board. I can even understand if you tone down the likes of Tennyo's power level or other changes to existing characters, as long as they are done in a way which makes sense with what has already happened. Which has been done with Fey excellently and even is bringing her back to being more relatable.

Phoenix Spiritus wrote: For those suggesting Nikki's parents could get her out, I'm pretty sure Mrs. Carson already is working with them.

No way a lawsuit against an underaged kid goes to the school, no matter what limited guardianship the school has, if this is real, the paperwork got originally filed with her parents, and they and Mrs. Carson together came up with this aproach.

Nikkie's Dad is too well connected, and has too much experience, not to know how bad things are getting for Nikki, it's entirely legitimate that he and Mrs. Carson are playing this together to help bring Nikki around. Staying out of it and letting Mrs. Carson be the 'Big Bad Wolf' allows him to maintain a close relationship with Nikki, but I'd be surprised if Mrs Carson isn't keeping him very closely informed, probably day by day, about what is happening.

That's actually an interesting proposition. It could also be her own parents were the ones to bring about a lawsuit to teach their daughter a lesson. File for Solicitor but never notifiy him. Then at the last minute once she hopefully learns her lesson there is an out of court settlement to which she would be subject to obey. And as OOCS's are kept confidential none will be allowed to talk about it.

I'm not sure I agree that TK is so overpowered that they need a few nerfs. Especially when the whole environmental impact of Sidhe magic was already a nerf on Fey's power. Aunghadhail's death was also a huge nerf in terms of speed of access to powerful effects. I guess I just don't see this as a reduction in power. This is more like a "saving her from herself".

Sara was already "nerfed" by her lack of POV writer. And now she's on the bus. Still want to know how her posse is holding up without their leader.

The rule 33 expulsion rule already nerfs Tennyo sufficiently, I would think.

And this shows that Ayla is responsible in how he "flaunts" his wealth.

Does anyone else on TK need nerfing?

Personally I think that Jade has the most terrible combination of powers of all - a flexible power and the creativity to get really inventive using it. And we still don't have a complete understanding of her powers.

Thinking back to the events in the Syndicate base, while the Black Hand was clearly overkill, would there have been any legal / ethical means of making Hekate and Solicitor account for their ethical misdemeanours?

Legal action wouldn't have been successful as you couldn't prove beyond all reasonable doube Solicitor knew what Hekate was up to, while as Cav and Sky entered the Fool's Circle of their own free will, it could be legally argued their enslavement was due to their own negligence (and the base was legally hired). As Hekate was able to avoid the Black Hand spell (with a little help from Charles Darrow), it's likely she would have been able to avoid / mitigate against almost any other spell Nikki could fling at her.

I'd imagine knowing that, even Lawful Good heroes would wrestle with their conscience before allowing Hekate to go free. However, it's possible that once back on campus, with the combination of people she would have informed about proceedings (including Administration), others could arrange their own retributions by proxy, complete with plausible deniability. Numerous anonymous (and untraceable) online sources raising a stink about Solicitor exploiting clients or various unproveable allegations about his conduct could potentially destroy his reputation, but Hekate would be trickier to deal with - at least partially due to her knowledge of dark Mythos magic, which is unknown to almost all people / entitites in the universe.

Nikki's been about the only TK character who has been toned down, and as this episode shows, Aung's death, while a great shock, was sadly necessary from a character development perspective - if Aung had remained, Nikki would likely have become increasingly dislikeable as she took on more of Aung's personality. Remember, Aung wasn't your conventional avatar that can be ignored or a spirit advisor (in the Whateley sense). If Aung had had a similar relationship with Nikki as Wakan Tanka does with Kayda, the arrangement could potentially have worked better, but that wasn't to be.

(Advance warning: The following is starting to head off-topic, although related to Kristin's last post)

Powers-wise, Nikki's already a powerful mage, but prior to Aung's death had discovered that most high powered spells (especially Mythos level) were unusable without causing environmental carnage as there's a distinct lack of World Trees. Similarly, while Billie has WTF levels of power, she knows that even if a significant fraction of that was unleashed, she could potentially cause nuclear armageddon. Added onto which, as has been shown with both Billie and Sara, it is possible to defeat a high level regenerator if you hit them frequently enough to cause damage faster than their regen can handle. Ayla's density warping can not only effect electronics but BITs (just ask Tisiphone) plus he has limited speed and agility. They all have powers weaknesses, in addition to well documented weaknesses in both personality traits and academic abilities.

Anyway, just be grateful that while the original authors of the characters are largely AFK, the team hasn't been been Put on a bus and we're still hearing from them and getting tidbits about some of the things they're up to, mainly via Elrod's characters interacting with them. He's also gradually introducing us to some others in Poe Cottage (after all, TK occupy less than half of one floor of Poe - there's still three and half floors worth of other occupants!) as well as elsewhere (there are around 600 students on campus - we've only met about a classful on a regular basis), while with Morpheus bringing Imp to Whateley, it's liekly we'll also start getting an insight into what the staff get up to when they're not teaching / lesson planning / marking.

Don't know if anyone pointed this out yet or not, but since it is a small enough detail, I wasn't going to comb through the thread to find out.

In the first segment, it is dated as 2015 instead of 2007 which I assume was the intended date.

There are around 650 named students, although some may be real name/code name duplicates. Oddly there are no named Sophomore Poe boys.

crystalhall.wikia.com/wiki/Sortable_Current_Student_List

Are we deconstructing Team Kimba? Yes and no. The answer is complicated. Of the original TK authors, Maggie is around once in a while, and Bek still writes. We've lost Starwolf, JG, Diane, Babs, Bladedancer, and many, many others. So those of us that are left have a choice - we could do a total reboot - which we all think i generally NOT a good idea, or we get rid of TK - which is also probably a bad idea because fans would totally revolt, or we ease them aside. One thing people don't realize is that writing OP characters repeatedly gets very difficult. Maggie quit writing Fey because it was getting harder and harder to write her well.

So we have some hard choices to make. Heyoka is dead. Sara may or may not come back - it's up to Dr. Bender, and if he returns to writing Whateley, it's set up so she can be rescued. Fey - she was very OP and had an arrogant spirit; she's been nerfed and given a path to more humility, so she can be written much more easily - and NOT be the center of attention. Toni? We have plans (and they're not bad - they just take the focus off her). Jade? Really, really tough without Babs' insanity, so we have to figure out something to do with this well-loved wackadoodle character. Tennyo? Horribly OP and hard to write. Gotta do something; even Section 33 isn't really enough. And so on and so on.

I hope you can appreciate that in order to KEEP the characters around, we have to make them easier to write as BACKGROUND characters out of the spotlight, and that WILL involve changes to them. And we are very sensitive to our fans, which is why we don't pack them in a bus for a spring break trip skiing in the Alps and get electrocuted in a freak accident while posing for a group photograph, after a cable becomes wet during a storm.

And I have plans for Fey. Big plans. Just like I'm writing some Chou into Kayda's stories, so too will I write more Fey. Hey, I like the characters, too!

Please don't take offense.

I see this happening as in the comic book world where new writers are left in a quandary on how to 'evolve' the characters that they have been given the reigns of. A perfect example of course is Superman. Over the course of his creation he went from being only able to leap 1/8 to a 1/4 of a mile he was able to travel in outer space without the need of a spacesuit and such. In other words he became so overpowering that in order to give him proper villains they to had to be over powerful. Which led to another series of problems in that if the villain was used against another superhero they were defeated with much more ease.

At one time D/C had attempted to nullify some of Superman's powers only to have a creeping effect occur as time passed and thus once again Superman was overpowered. I just used him as an example as there are many others that had the same effect. Batman is the worlds greatest detective but I see him more in fighting roles then using his wits like he used to.

Not many fans are fond of reboots. Why? Because of the obvious reasons. They liked the character for who he was as with not wanting to have to go through a whole new set of lore which they may lose empathy on.

But for here the matter is a bit more complex. No writers 'want' to take on the characters of those that had been written about. This is for various reasons.

1. The characters don't belong to them, but have been given permission to show them around campus. To intermingle if you will. But they do not have creative rights to change them. I'm sure that many have collaborated with the owners to get certain aspects down such as powers, feelings and such but not in the way their creator was using them.

2. Many 'don't want' to use them if allowed. Why? Just as some are more in-tuned to the inner working of magic others are crippled by it and as such stay away as it would cause more harm then good.

3. Just don't have permission. As has been pointed out, writers leave for various reason and in so doing they cause a new set of problems. What to do with the characters that readers want to learn or care about. The departed writer has left a gaping hole to fill and as such the characters become walk on entities, a prop if you will, of their once former selves. Thus those in charge are left to decide. Do they 'ignore' and ship the characters off, kill them or continue to hope that the writer will return to carry on the mantel that they once had?

4. Writers 'ask' for permission to use them, which has been the case here. It keeps the universe stable in that although some of the main characters are displaced others are now able to make a showing. Its 'hard' for one writer to take over the role of an writers established character. People will pick up the little nuisances that have changed or how a characters abilities no longer flow the way the reader once expected.

5. Do nothing with them. Period. Now that becomes the problem in a world where the authors had collaborated and schemed and envisioned on the future timeline.

I don't envy many of the hard choices that has to be made. Its tough to have to decide the fate of ones character or others. As has been already, stated I understand the reluctance to want to do a 'reboot' given the enormity of time, writing and planning and energy that went into creating this world. Still hard decisions must be made and although some may not like them and leave, others will come and as even if they may be a bit confused at first, will come to understand what has taken place.

This leaves us with another problem. Time. Time is constantly moving for us and just like the past so to will the future bring newer, harder decisions to be needed and made. Things happen to writers and I'll leave it like that. I hope they don't happen anytime now or in the near future. But if the site is to survive it must evolve if its to still be kept relevant to the readers.

And as some will note, life sucks at times but don't we all have to make some decisions we don't like?

I would like to point out that there was actually very little "nerfing" of characters, and what little there is was done in a very elegant way, CONSISTENT with the character as previously defined. In roughly Whateley-time order:
- Ayla: Diane chose to disregard part of Ayla's character sheet that had never been shown in the stories (so it doesn't really count).
- Ayla again: after the Tisiphone incident, he is really reluctant to use his light-disruption power. Note that Ayla didn't LOSE a power nor had it dialed back; in fact, you might argue that the disruption power was made MORE powerful and therefore, more dangerous.
- Tennyo: so she got Section 33'd. So what? The ENTIRE CONCEPT of the character is her being wildly overpowered physically while at the same time being afraid to use her powers. Section 33 is totally consistent with it.
- Fey: yeah, she found out that she couldn't keep sucking humongous amounts of mana from the biosphere. So she has to be more careful, and research alternate sources of power. It's actually consistent with the whole "Sundering" thing, that broke the magical ecosystem that Sidhe thrived on. Note that nothing changed in *Nikki*, only she learned that she can't expect that techniques that worked pre-Sundering are still acceptable. This is probably a temporary (in Sidhe time scales, at least) nerfing; eventually, Nikki will learn to use other sources of Essence and return to full power.
- Fey again: losing Aunghandail. It is traumatic, yes, but is it really a nerfing? It has been implied that Nikki still has the memories and knowledge of Aung... somewhere. She just hasn't learned to access those fully yet. It may take quite a while, so again it is a temporary nerfing at most. And, as has been pointed out, Aung was not the best of influences in terms of personality, and she had a tendency to take old-fashioned approaches to things. So losing Aung might eventually *help* Nikki to develop her own approach to magic, which means a faster power re-escalation than she might have achieved while under Aunghandail's reactionary influence. In fact, losing one's elderly mentor and having to find one's own path is a traditional part of the Hero's Journey. Examples are simply too numerous to list.
- And Fey again: the lawsuit does not even count as a nerf. It's just one more stone in the path of the Hero's Journey.
- And, yes, Jamie was killed off. That would count as "nerfing", I guess. Of the ultimate level. But then, although Jamie was a bit OP'd on specs, they hadn't actually done much with that power. So the overall impact is... what?
- Finally, Sara was not so much nerfed as put on a bus for a while.

Also note the following:
At the first encounter, it was 'known' that Hank could take Kodiak, the baddest bad-ass on campus. But in the spring, at the Alpha Council meeting, he's told by someone that Kodiak must not have wanted to fight that day, or Hank would be dead - implying that Kodiak was holding back and Hank ISN'T the strongest, most invulnerable guy on campus. Not a true nerfing so much as clarifying something that made him look OP.

Toni was a hyper-bad-ass martial artist, even beating a paragon. Then she got her rear handed to her by Counterpoint - right up until he overloaded his yin or yang (one of them). Is this a nerfing? Or is it more like Hank - a clarification of her powers so she doesn't appear so OP?

Generator is the one who has been least nerfed (IMHO). And her insanity and ability to cast more and more of her 'selves' into things makes her very powerful.

Kristin Darken wrote: Instead of looking at it as nerfing... trying considering the perspective of what the reality of the world would be if we tried to write anything other than a TK centric story IF TK continued as it was? Can they be anything BUT in the limelight with Nikki playing the role of the next Queen of the Sidhe nation? TK does have a part to play in the 'big picture'... but so do many other players. The full Whateley story isn't a crockpot story... where you put all the pieces in the pot at once and turn it on and leave it for eight hours and then serve. Team Kimba and Sara's group and even the outgoing seniors... all have a place and a purpose, but that place isn't always going to be 'down center' in the spotlight... and it doesn't do them any good to slip into the wings quietly if we leave the spot on them. And don't forget how many great plays don't even introduce the title character until Act 2.

I disagree strongly that TK, if not nerfed (it's a convenient word), MUST dominate the story lines. Most of TK have been dormant for years now. Whateley, the shared universe with 3+million words and growing, has survived all this time without Champion, or Lady Astarte, or Circe, or Dr. Diabolik, or Gothmog totally dominating all the story lines. I see no reason why a "moved to the background" TK couldn't continue to exist, as is, in the universe. It is a choice to purposefully remove their power. I'm not saying it is a bad choice. I'm merely pointing out that it isn't absolutely necessary. Just because I disagree with your path taken doesn't mean I won't follow along to see what happens next.

Could not an individual that draws in essence theoretically 'burn' themselves out thus destroying their ability? This way it may be considered 'nerfing' even as it follows canon rules. Readers may not see it as so but to the writer it would be.

Sir Lee wrote: I would like to point out that there was actually very little "nerfing" of characters, and what little there is was done in a very elegant way, CONSISTENT with the character as previously defined. In roughly Whateley-time order:

I'm only talking about recent changes. The things you pointed out here occurred inside POV stories. That's just natural character "growth".

The changes pointed out the ElrodW are also inside POV stories and are just the typical thing where POV stories tend to have biased, uninformed "authors" (the POV character, not the actual writer).

My disappointment here is there isn't more Fey POV to explore this attempt to shape her character. Or Ayla POV to explore Jinn cornering him about Nikki.

jmhyp wrote:

Sir Lee wrote: I would like to point out that there was actually very little "nerfing" of characters, and what little there is was done in a very elegant way, CONSISTENT with the character as previously defined. In roughly Whateley-time order:

I'm only talking about recent changes. The things you pointed out here occurred inside POV stories. That's just natural character "growth".

The changes pointed out the ElrodW are also inside POV stories and are just the typical thing where POV stories tend to have biased, uninformed "authors" (the POV character, not the actual writer).

My disappointment here is there isn't more Fey POV to explore this attempt to shape her character. Or Ayla POV to explore Jinn cornering him about Nikki.

I'm going to disagree once, and then get back to writing my next story (which features Chou) which is a leadup to a story that WILL feature Fey. Barring a miracle, we will NOT see another Fey POV story, nor an Ayla POV, nor Toni, nor Tennyo, nor Generator, nor Chou. Disappointing as that is for long-time fans of those characters, it's reality.

That doesn't mean, however, that we won't feature them. But how do you realistically expect EE or me or Morpheus to write, for example, a huge battle with the Bastard or Unhcegila or other bad things if we know - and the readers also know - that Fey and the TK cavalry are able to come riding over the hill to bail everyone out? I for one don't want to deal with such situations, because it requires fantastical plots and elements to first neutralize the cavalry and then to put the new characters in realistic danger that THEY can handle. Do you not see the inherent conflict? If something could keep TK neutralized and off the playing field, what chance do lower-powered current characters have? As ALL students are at Whateley, that means we take ALL conflicts off Whateley, or we have a major disconnect.

The answer? WE are making adjustments - with permission when we can talk to the original authors - to adjust them so OUR characters and plots don't have the "magic escape button". that means in some cases that we'll see creative ways to 'neutralize' TK without having to kill them all.

Now, argue more if you want, but this is a decision made by the cabal to deal with a very messy situation we inherited. Please try to understand that we HAVE to do something, and this is what we've chosen.

Fey and Ayla's POV stories have been written by very good authors, who put years of their lives into them and basically wrote at a level and of skill that is extremely intimidating.

When Elrod suggested I write a "Vignette" out of my Micro-Scenes I full on panicked, and that was for Hank! The one nearly all of us have at some time or other attempted to write the "origin" story for. The one without a story, or style, or any hard to research quirks (who here feels they know enough about Finance, or cooking, or hell, just French, German, Japanese or Chinese to do Ayla justice? What about Classical texts in their original languages? Just thinking about the skills Ayla has, and that need to be juggled in the head of the author writing him, makes my head hurt).

I had to sit down by myself and write the end scene and the beginning scene for Hank's grief, then look carefully at the "middle" micro-scenes and all i had before I could satisfy myself that, actually yes, I do feel I can write a Hank story, but believe me, you wouldn't have wanted to read what I gave Elrod.

Fey is hard.

Ayla is a nightmare.

There is too much of their authors in them for others to easily pick up the characters, and all this is just someone looking in from the outside. While I too would love to read more Ayla stories, more Jade stories, more Tenyo stories, the majority of the Authors we have came to the cabel through writing their own characters, not Team Kimba, its a tough ask to step into the shoes of those who have written those characters so well.

I feel for you Phoenix. A good example is those that have read Robert Jordan's 'Wheel of Time' series. Many wondered if the story would be completed given his passing and, at the time, one more book to be produced. His wife asked a trusted writer friend to finish for him as she knew Mr. Jordan would want. There were many, many notes, outlines, sketches and such for the new writer to use.

The problem was as many readers discover once the first of 2 books to be published was that 'we' all noticed a difference in the characters. Sure the author tried to follow Jordans outline, but he had no real underlying feeling for the characters themselves. He even stated that even though he felt satisfied in his efforts its still not a story by the original author. We picked up on the change in writing within the first chapter itself.

Many felt disappointment while others accepted what the ghost writer was trying to accomplish. Given the ending of the story itself many of us questioned, even now the ending. Would it have been this way or some other way as some authors have been known to change them.

My point being is this. NONE, NO ONE, will be able to do justice for those on Team Kimba for none will know what the author had intended. Its harsh, it hurts but its fact. Even if an author was to come back it would be touch even for them to pick up where they left off so many years ago. I won't mind reading about them now and then to show that they are still alive in a sense an I will admit I was just starting to like Generator (I was confused at the time of her role and did some research). BUT I don't expect to see another POV for them in that someone else will know how to fully write about them as intended by the original.

I rewrote my prior response several times and lost this bit: In the end, it will all turn out fine. Just because I don't like the current path doesn't mean I won't follow along to see where it leads.

elrodw wrote: That doesn't mean, however, that we won't feature them. But how do you realistically expect EE or me or Morpheus to write, for example, a huge battle with the Bastard

Well, in theory, this battle already happened (in Ill Winds Part 7 as foretold by Ill Winds Part 6) and somehow the Bastard and Fey survived. But we don't know how.

or Unhcegila or other bad things if we know - and the readers also know - that Fey and the TK cavalry are able to come riding over the hill to bail everyone out?

Well, Hank and Ayla can't ride to the rescue as their minds just go ka-boom at the sight of the Class X entities. Jade might be in the same boat, hard to say. Chou, Toni, Jericho, and Razorback were part of the unfinished story so they can't be in the cavalry. Tennyo makes things worse for all concerned but she is about the only cavalry there is for a Class X threat. (Sara too pre-summoning).

Now, argue more if you want,

I hate the word argue, as used here. Who is arguing? I had expectations. They didn't happen. Something else did. I am fully capable of both being disappointed in my broken expectation and being excited to see where the new direction will go. What is so hard about someone saying something didn't go the way they would like? If I really hated the direction things were going I wouldn't waste my time posting about it. I'd just leave. The fact that I'm still here means I am, on some level, happy with what is going on. And now I have new expectations. They will be fulfilled or left wanting in the future. Time will tell.

jmhyp wrote: I rewrote my prior response several times and lost this bit: In the end, it will all turn out fine. Just because I don't like the current path doesn't mean I won't follow along to see where it leads.

Now, argue more if you want,

I hate the word argue, as used here. Who is arguing? I had expectations. They didn't happen. Something else did. I am fully capable of both being disappointed in my broken expectation and being excited to see where the new direction will go. What is so hard about someone saying something didn't go the way they would like? If I really hated the direction things were going I wouldn't waste my time posting about it. I'd just leave. The fact that I'm still here means I am, on some level, happy with what is going on. And now I have new expectations. They will be fulfilled or left wanting in the future. Time will tell.

Point here is that I'm trying to incorporate the old characters as background elements the newer characters can interact with, and that requires changes from when they were the primary focus. That's what we're doing. I like Team Kimba as much as the next person, maybe more because I'm trying hard - and occasionally tearing my hair out - to include them in my stories in a non-spotlight fashion, but they're a challenge to write around. I'm not trying to argue or make anyone upset, but rather to explain the why and wherefore of what is being done. I'll never match the original authors' styles, but I can keep the characters somewhat active in the universe. That's what I'm trying to do.

I never expected TK to come riding to the rescue, just as DC fans don't expect Superman and the Justice League to come riding to the rescue. I did expect them to be present at the big battle, and if they were still being written, to be a major focus of the story. Since we have unfortunately lost the original authors, I would still expect to participate, just differently. As a couple of examples:

Hey look it's an army of Shoggoths, Tennyo you go deal with them. Billie is probably hungry anyway, and I understand Shoggoth is good eating.

I have a scene in my head where Ayla meets with Wyatt and presents several lists of students. The first is a list of who you can't tell about the League, because they will tell one of the four verbotten. A second list is one that ranks the students by usefulness, a third is those not to tell because it will get out or they would have some obligation to tell a higher authority. Having Ayla there as organizer is the best possible use of his talents, and makes him a "background" character.

For all the stuff Jade can do, her actual best use is battlefield intelligence. An intelligent, disposable reconnaissance drone system.

The rest of TK can be similarly dealt with, making them present but not the stars of the show.

I like Valentine's idea.

So when fighting the Bastard, Fey leads one ritual using Sidhe magic on one side of the battlefield with Whisper acting as a POV and taking quite a bit of the weight protecting Fey, as Fey is busy chanting and can't do much more than that.
Kayda is on the other side leading the Native ritual and acts as the POV there.
Jade acts as a scout reporting to POV Kodiak who controls the battle. Ayla is off with a squad or two of KoP acting as a rapid response unit, and seen occasionally by POV characters. Tennyo is off munching on demons that almost overwhelmed the left flank where Roulette and some other smaller characters were, and everyone watches in amazement as Blade Dancer keeps the Bastard distracted without actually defeating him, by going hand to hand with the thing.
TK gets to be useful and important without overpowering everything and the POV characters get their own chance to shine.

elrodw wrote: Toni was a hyper-bad-ass martial artist, even beating a paragon. Then she got her rear handed to her by Counterpoint - right up until he overloaded his yin or yang (one of them). Is this a nerfing? Or is it more like Hank - a clarification of her powers so she doesn't appear so OP?

Chaka is OP more in the future, since ki abilities tend to grow over time, but her versatility is really what makes her to much.

elrodw wrote: Generator is the one who has been least nerfed (IMHO). And her insanity and ability to cast more and more of her 'selves' into things makes her very powerful.

She needs to find a cap, and soon, on the number of selves that she can cast, one that doesn't change. Like with Chaka, it is her versatility that makes her OP. "The Noodle Incident" micro scene is a perfect example of how she is extremely dangerous because of the versatility. a 5 pound bag of flour being cast into and dropped, in someone's lungs.

the dust from the rubble in a battle would also work instead of flour.

Ayla's capability of going intangible and aligning himself within Tennyo then becoming super dense, killing both while causing a nuclear winter globally makes him extremely op. Can he not use his intelligence to come up with he means to do that with something else so he can survive? What opponent could handle having a mass suddenly being inside them?

Dawnfyre wrote: Ayla's capability of going intangible and aligning himself within Tennyo then becoming super dense, killing both while causing a nuclear winter globally makes him extremely op. Can he not use his intelligence to come up with he means to do that with something else so he can survive? What opponent could handle having a mass suddenly being inside them?

Admittedly this was a last resort option, that he really didn't want to try. And the fact that it's a suicide attack tends to even it out.

Which is the motivation to try to come up with another way to get the stop effect of it without the suicide aspect.
( oh, Generator casts into a cloud o lead dust Phase makes it intangible and generator drops it in every cell of the opponent. )

Phase has at least five methods to stop Tennyo. If I remember correctly it goes something like this.
The first involves Jade as a distraction, and only leads to the death of Tennyo and probably Jade.
Can't remember the second one, but it's pretty bad for the immediate area.
The third one destroys the ecosystem for a large area including the Glade to send Tennyo to a pocket dimension.
Fourth is the suicide mission.
And the last one is worse.

Dawnfyre wrote: Chaka is OP more in the future, since ki abilities tend to grow over time, but her versatility is really what makes her to much.

Chaka loses any fight that lasts longer than she however long it takes her chi to go out of balance. Over time, she will learn how to prevent that.

Jade is potentially far more powerful than any of the others if she continues to become stronger. But her childlike attitude keeps her "safe"

Ayla's capability of going intangible and aligning himself within Tennyo then becoming super dense, killing both while causing a nuclear winter globally makes him extremely op. Can he not use his intelligence to come up with he means to do that with something else so he can survive? What opponent could handle having a mass suddenly being inside them?

Ayla doesn't need suicide to be scary. (And technically the nuclear explosion is just an assumption of the Sims. It is not known what might happen.)

Ayla could pull someone's underpants off with a casual swipe of her hand as off her 4th story. If she wasn't "squeamish", she could reach into someone's chest and remove their internal organs. Or, more subtly, she could create a hole in a major blood vessel and let them bleed out. Ayla could stick his hand into someone's neck and go solid. Only high level regens can survive the stuff Ayla can do. But her character keeps her from doing these things. This ability doesn't need to be lowered as if she ever uses it, it won't be in a cavalry rescue.

Jade is the truly scary one. There are a few mentions of how in general powers work, such as Hank can now lift 7 tons, when he is an adult he will be able to lift those 7 tons repeatedly with little effort, but struggle with anything heavier.

Jade on the other hand, has continually had her power increase during the stories. In the beginning her charges lasted under an hour, that has well more than doubled, (not included mithril or Timeless boosts), her TK strength has gone from 1 to 3, the number of charges she can cast has gone from 1 to 5, and the minimum size of what she can manipulate has shrunk dramatically. All this in 6 months or so. If this continues by the time she graduates she would be completely unstoppable, (well as long she isn't distracted by Stephen's scales, Hello Kitty, or other cuteness).

And even more than that, we still don't entirely know what's going on with her power. There's something up with her bit, and she has a complete immunity to emotional auras (although not protective empathy) up to and including the Class X site in the sewers. And she might be a shifter, according to Tennyo Goes to Hell (which always seemed like an odd name to me, since it's about Jade going to hell, even if Tennyo tags along)

I really hope that the canon bible holds the secrets to Jade's power, because it would be a shame for the answers to be lost to history. (I don't even care so much if the answers show up in a story, as long as somebody knows them, although finding out the answer would be nice)


Also, it gets overlooked a fair bit, but Shroud's sight, while subpar in some ways, is incredibly powerful.

At the risk of continuing this topic drift away from the story itself...

It's already been pointed out that each 'self' Jade casts knocks some energy out of her - so while she's steadily able to increase the number of 'selves' she can 'cast', she's probably quite near the upper limit for the number that can be cast while leaving her physical self able to interact and not be excessively dopey. She's unlikely to cast anywhere near her maximum amount in battle as that would leave her physical self extremely vulnerable. As for control, that hasn't steadily increased - that's mainly due to a one-time uplift in the Tool/Demona Incident. As with many others, her dangerousness is likely to be better done via psychological means (making her realise that just because she can, it doesn't mean she should) - and as she grows older, it's entirely possible she'll mature more.

While Billie technically has WTF levels of power, using anything other than a fraction of a percent of it is likely to be extremely dangerous for her surroundings (and if she lost control, she could conceivably destroy a significant chunk of the US) - her situation is basically having a giant Damocles Sword hanging over her 24/7. In addition, she's far from the most self-confident member of TK and isn't an academic superstar. Her attitude was perfectly summed up during her Combat Final when she was overly cautious about using pretty much any of her powers - in the end throwing up a forcefield.

While she has gained a very limited number of insights into The Destroyer, she still knows far less than we do, and I'd imagine knowing much more would pretty much destroy what little self-confidence she has. Unlike Nikki, it's pretty much inconceivable The Destroyer can 'die' - so her character development would have to be along the lines of improving self-confidence while learning what the upper limit of acceptable use of her powers is.

As for a future fight against The Bastard, given both Billie and Nikki (especially pre Aung's loss) have the potential to cause damage to hundreds (thousands?) of square miles of terrain, so from a strategic PoV it would be better to keep them in reserve and only bring them out as Weapons of Last Resort, if nothing else works.

Besides which, while Diane wrote that Ayla had thought of numerous ways in which each member of TK could be defeated, it's possible she wrote and shared with the rest of Canon more than was revealed in story. Also, while it currently seems unlikely she'll return, she's still writing, which is a start, and leaves open the (remote?) possibility that she could eventually be coaxed back.

Valentine wrote: Jade is the truly scary one. There are a few mentions of how in general powers work, such as Hank can now lift 7 tons, when he is an adult he will be able to lift those 7 tons repeatedly with little effort, but struggle with anything heavier.

Jade on the other hand, has continually had her power increase during the stories. In the beginning her charges lasted under an hour, that has well more than doubled, (not included mithril or Timeless boosts), her TK strength has gone from 1 to 3, the number of charges she can cast has gone from 1 to 5, and the minimum size of what she can manipulate has shrunk dramatically. All this in 6 months or so. If this continues by the time she graduates she would be completely unstoppable, (well as long she isn't distracted by Stephen's scales, Hello Kitty, or other cuteness).

Would this be considered a natural progression of the characters occurrence or would you say she unwittingly being Super enhanced by story circumstances in which to facilitate Jade after perhaps being written into a corner?

Natural progression I'm betting.

Mainly due to the consistency of improvements in the early stories.

Definitely natural progression, at least on the strength and duration. The duration which Jade could measure had increased from the beginning. The strength grew at least from the time they began testing and continually increased.

The number she didn't discover until Tansy Jinn-napped her, but she worked on increasing that.

They fine work may have come from the Tool incident.

Also I strongly believe the immunity to fear begins with the self hypnosis she did.

annachie wrote: Also I strongly believe the immunity to fear begins with the self hypnosis she did.

or is a side effect of the bitslicer with Tennyo and Jade gaining the destroyer's demon mark and high level regen.

Dawnfyre wrote:

annachie wrote: Also I strongly believe the immunity to fear begins with the self hypnosis she did.

or is a side effect of the bitslicer with Tennyo and Jade gaining the destroyer's demon mark and high level regen.

This should be moved to the Jade thread. (The fear thing was always there, she wasn't afraid when she went into the sewers.)

so what is Fey and TK's reaction going to be when they find out Ayla's been playin' them?

Valentine wrote:

Dawnfyre wrote:

annachie wrote: Also I strongly believe the immunity to fear begins with the self hypnosis she did.

or is a side effect of the bitslicer with Tennyo and Jade gaining the destroyer's demon mark and high level regen.

This should be moved to the Jade thread. (The fear thing was always there, she wasn't afraid when she went into the sewers.)

so what is Fey and TK's reaction going to be when they find out Ayla's been playin' them?

You want my thoughts as author?

You're gonna get 'em anyway, so there!
At some point, Ayla is going to have to let TK - minus Fey - know, because Generator can sense his emotions. This would be after the meeting with Kodiak, when Fey has to really confront what she was becoming. Naturally, she'd tell her roommate and best friend, who'd tell the rest of the team. At that point, Ayla's guilt at keeping a secret from his team would be overwhelming, and he'd let them know what Carson had told him, and explain that, as they can see, it was something that HAD to be done to break Fey of the bad habits Aung had left her with. There will be some tension, but eventually, they'll all see that what Ayla was forced to do by Carson was the right thing for their friend Nikki. And they'll slowly realize - some faster than others - that Carson did what she did out of concern for Nikki and being boxed in by that damned spell.

That's my thoughts. Tear 'em apart if you want, but I'm sticking to my story...

elrodw wrote: Also I strongly believe the immunity to fear begins with the self hypnosis she did.

You're gonna get 'em anyway, so there!
At some point, Ayla is going to have to let TK - minus Fey - know, because Generator can sense his emotions. This would be after the meeting with Kodiak, when Fey has to really confront what she was becoming. Naturally, she'd tell her roommate and best friend, who'd tell the rest of the team. At that point, Ayla's guilt at keeping a secret from his team would be overwhelming, and he'd let them know what Carson had told him, and explain that, as they can see, it was something that HAD to be done to break Fey of the bad habits Aung had left her with. There will be some tension, but eventually, they'll all see that what Ayla was forced to do by Carson was the right thing for their friend Nikki. And they'll slowly realize - some faster than others - that Carson did what she did out of concern for Nikki and being boxed in by that damned spell.

That's my thoughts. Tear 'em apart if you want, but I'm sticking to my story...

Okay no playing this time.

This act could put a minor rift within the group as with how they function as one. Ayla 'had' to keep his dealings with Mrs. Carson a secret which hurts the team. It places a burden on him as emotions go back to how The Goodkind family has ways of manipulating things and it kinda comes back to haunt both him and them. Even if he was to explain without telling Nikki it doesn't mean they'll like it. Their friends foremost and this is a test of that friendship.

How it plays out, even for the better of Nikki will shed how they will come to view each other in the future. Many friendships were lost due to 'simple' misunderstandings as well as peer pressure.

Its also going to shape (I feel) Ayla in how he see's others. Most see him as a business person whereas his friends see him as another. Perhaps there will be speculation on his reasoning's for doing so as with some perhaps wondering what 'he' would get out of it.

How would the tension without their most powerful teammate make them feel as they come up to battle tests as well as how it's impacting Nikki herself. What if she were to find out the truth that Ayla had to play her? Only a few days have passed not the full two weeks. What if she found out later once her punishment is over and how will she view the others if found out? Its not just about her, but also about those she interacts with.

I'm not much of a chess player even though I like to play and I'm not the greatest. I don't think 4-5 moves ahead of my opponent, so my knowledge of whats coming up is just that. Speculation, half-baked guesses and most likely I'll find myself falling flat on my face as I'm proved wrong as I hide in shame from embarrassment.

Nikki's also going to have to face another bit of reality. Her carrier as a model. Already she's working her way out of it, even if others don't see it. Its her pride in not wanting to give anything to Solicitor that is driving a deeper wedge in what she (from what I've seen) likes to do. She's letting money (as a lot of kids do as with adults) become the focus of who she is.

I understand she needs it and no kid likes to be told there will be limits once they had overall freedom to obtain it before. So its more than just the lawsuit and how to bring Nikki down a bit. I see it as where she's going to have to reflect on who she was, who she is now and who she wants to be in the future.

Have at it Ripply.

the punishment is for the rest of her stay at Whateley, with that sleezeball Solicitor getting her royalties.

Dawnfyre wrote: the punishment is for the rest of her stay at Whateley, with that sleezeball Solicitor getting her royalties.

IF (and that's a big IF at this point) the lawsuit is really from the Solicitor, if indeed it even IS real. (Only EE and I know at this point.) If it's not, it's a way to punish her to make her think. If it is, she is being punished and has to learn.

Tell me what you'd do in Carson's shoes, both with a real lawsuit and a 'contrived' lawsuit. Tell me how you'd handle such a situation. I'm genuinely curious.

elrodw wrote: IF (and that's a big IF at this point) the lawsuit is really from the Solicitor, if indeed it even IS real. (Only EE and I know at this point.) If it's not, it's a way to punish her to make her think. If it is, she is being punished and has to learn.

Since, as far as any on Campus outside of Administration knows it is real, my comment about the punishment is based on it being real.

elrodw wrote: Tell me what you'd do in Carson's shoes, both with a real lawsuit and a 'contrived' lawsuit. Tell me how you'd handle such a situation. I'm genuinely curious.

Hard one to answer, I'll give it some thought while sitting in the waiting room getting xrayed today and get back to you on that.

I know I would be worried about provoking Nikki into unleashing the hand on the Solicitor, since Nikki is known to detest him. If I was in Nikki's shoes I would, in front of Carson, cast the black hand so it will hit the Solicitor, if he gets even 1 penny of royalties. If he drops the lawsuit then the spell fizzles.

In that case, Carson would HAVE TO arrest Nikki. And that is virtually a death sentence.

Another action would or could be expulsion thus relinquishing Mrs. Carsons hold over her. In other words throw her to the wolves.

Ib12us wrote: Another action would or could be expulsion thus relinquishing Mrs. Carsons hold over her. In other words throw her to the wolves.

Interesting idea.
Let me offer my author's counterpoints:
a) Carson LOSES all ability to try to guide Nikki to responsible use of her power, and may cause significant resentment that makes her MORE dangerous, not less.

b) Nikki and TK find out in the outside world that Hekate is NOT dead, and they go off on a vendetta against her, making things worse.

Next?

Everything Carson is doing right now is working to prevent those two things from happening. Carson will never give up in Nikki, always hoping to bring out her better nature. To do otherwise would be to admit she failed the girl and unleash a threat onto the world with little to no restraint in using magic that dwarfs the ancient gods of old. Plus she cares for all her students and tries her best to steer them on the right path, there are just a few which refuse to listen or become too far gone to help anymore, like Speakeasy.

In that case, Carson would HAVE TO arrest Nikki. And that is virtually a death sentence.

that is the point
no modelling, no royalties.

or, Nikki says her new modelling fee, payable by the Solicitor, is 1 billion per photo taken.
Modelling fees are not royalties, and she gives up all but .01% of sales ( royalties ) while the punishment is in effect. so for every 10 dollars in a sale, royalties are 1 penny.

But simply threatening the spell is enough for expulsion. Unless Nikki wants to go it alone, that's the worst choice she could make.

Not disagreeing but there is also the chance that things can snowball to where Mrs. Carson isn't given much choice.

Also wasn't it Loophole as Wicked who had fought Hekate? What if Loophole was to accidentally or have Nikki overhear that Hekate had been arrested and such. Wouldn't that also throw a wrench in alls plans in not having Nikki find out? Pure spec on my part. Of course there is Loopholes brother and he's not fully immersed in the art of being quiet in such matters either and is kinda seen as a showoff for the moment.

Mrs. Carson or other members of the staff can't stop all conversations concerning villians. There is the matter of the internet as well as the news. And as much as they tried to keep the heist downplayed I'm sure that there had to have been some coverage concerning the matter. I'm sure filters would also work to scrub such events from being displayed.

If barking up the wrong tree, I'll look for another.

elrodw wrote: Tell me what you'd do in Carson's shoes, both with a real lawsuit and a 'contrived' lawsuit. Tell me how you'd handle such a situation. I'm genuinely curious.

A real lawsuit, back Nikki up but require a new agreement on the modelling fees royalties share that is nearly as draconian as the lawsuit, specifically because of the criminal nature of the spell. This would hit Nikki with the way Aung was changing her, without the risk of her getting after anyone with the same spell.

I wouldn't use a contrived lawsuit, I would just do a punishment for the criminal nature of the spell that cuts her royalties.
The idea being to make her look at what she did wrong, and WHY she made that choice. ( with either situation ) By not completely backing her into a corner with no support you can go directly to the what and why of the wrongdoing, without the current risk of her going after the Solicitor.

Ib12us wrote: Not disagreeing but there is also the chance that things can snowball to where Mrs. Carson isn't given much choice.

Also wasn't it Loophole as Wicked who had fought Hekate? What if Loophole was to accidentally or have Nikki overhear that Hekate had been arrested and such. Wouldn't that also throw a wrench in alls plans in not having Nikki find out? Pure spec on my part. Of course there is Loopholes brother and he's not fully immersed in the art of being quiet in such matters either and is kinda seen as a showoff for the moment.

Mrs. Carson or other members of the staff can't stop all conversations concerning villians. There is the matter of the internet as well as the news. And as much as they tried to keep the heist downplayed I'm sure that there had to have been some coverage concerning the matter. I'm sure filters would also work to scrub such events from being displayed.

If barking up the wrong tree, I'll look for another.

Loophole fought Freya.

Thanks for the correction. Should I delete said msg?

No need.

One thing that hasn't been covered yet in the discussion is to what to aim for with the negotiating a better deal. Especially as Nikki's been given an insight into Aung's character, perhaps start the bartering with Solicitor getting 50% of her modelling royalties, with current deal + increased clothing allowance being the option of last resort.

mittfh wrote: One thing that hasn't been covered yet in the discussion is to what to aim for with the negotiating a better deal. Especially as Nikki's been given an insight into Aung's character, perhaps start the bartering with Solicitor getting 50% of her modelling royalties, with current deal + increased clothing allowance being the option of last resort.

Moreover, the question is WHY Ayla was told to tell Nikki to negotiate. That doesn't seem to have been covered in any of the options.

Also, another question. In all this, HOW does Mrs. C keep even a modicum of Nikki's trust so she CAN guide the girl? Or does she give up and let Magic Arts take that role?

Given that we are speculating on this matter and we are placed at the negotiating table (which I assume she would not be present) I would harbor a guess in that she would want to keep all upcoming proceeds from her modeling as with giving perhaps relinquishing 45% of her current holdings, 0% on future holdings and to obtain a sworn affidavit that there would be no further attempt to procure more in the said future thus closing the matter.

As I am not fully knowledgeable in these dealings I'm sure I'll be off the mark.

elrodw wrote:

mittfh wrote: One thing that hasn't been covered yet in the discussion is to what to aim for with the negotiating a better deal. Especially as Nikki's been given an insight into Aung's character, perhaps start the bartering with Solicitor getting 50% of her modelling royalties, with current deal + increased clothing allowance being the option of last resort.

Moreover, the question is WHY Ayla was told to tell Nikki to negotiate. That doesn't seem to have been covered in any of the options.

Also, another question. In all this, HOW does Mrs. C keep even a modicum of Nikki's trust so she CAN guide the girl? Or does she give up and let Magic Arts take that role?

Possibly to draw out the matter instead of having a quick resolution as a way to buy further time. Offer counter offer and such. If Nikki was even willing to consider such an option or was she going to be headstrong in her conviction that 'she' had done nothing wrong in the matter in her eyes. To buy time to where her friends could possibly enlighten Nikki into a more rational thought process of what she had done, perhaps.

Also it might be where it could placid her while others with more experience or clear thinking look further into the matter itself. To find out if it's from Solicitor or from another 3rd party hoping to gain something from the lawsuit. Many lawyers would file on behalf of a person if they thought they could make money themselves off the matter, not caring if the person wanted to sue or not.

Interesting point -- whoever called Ayla (not clearly stated, but from the fact that Ayla does know who is it and it's a female voice, it could be inferred that it's either Carson or someone working with her) pushing for a delaying tactic.

On more general terms... Carson initiating a fake lawsuit would be a bad idea, I think because if it gets discovered (and these kinds of things tend to be found out eventually) it would impair not only Carson's, but the school's ability to earn the trust of students. I don't think Carson is stupid enough to believe that this sort of manipulation would not blow up on her face. There's simply too many ways that Fey or someone else might find out.

But I don't think she is above taking tactical advantage of a lawsuit initiated by other parties. Which she is doing.

The delaying tactic, if true, is interesting. Maybe Carson smelled a rat somewhere in the lawsuit and is doing her own checking. And negotiating would involve communicating (in some form) with whoever is representing Solicitor in the lawsuit, that is, it might offer more clues to find out who is behind it. If Carson uncovers something interesting, that could actually earn her brownie points with the students. And in the meantime, Nikki Reilly is getting a well-needed lesson in humility -- there might not be a need to extend the lesson for three full school years.

Regarding the renegotiating itself... a valid tactic would be to point out that, under the terms of the proposed settlement, Fey would have no incentive to pursue more and higher-paying jobs -- her liquid earnings would not change, nor would she be "paying off" the debt quicker. That is, for her there would be no difference between a local department store catalog job and a Chanel spokesmodel contract. -- either would fulfill the terms of the settlement.
Whoever wrote the proposed settlement assumed that, like human models, Nikki has a short shelf-life and would still work as hard as she could anyway in order to build her reputation before her looks start going. This simply does not apply to Sidhe -- she is expected to be as beautiful as she is now in, oh, a few centuries. Three years is nothing.
Changing the terms of the settlement so that only say, 70% of her earnings were sequestered, would actually result in *more* money going to Solicitor's pockets.

Another thought occurred to me (dangerous I know...).

Would not a lawyer not want or need to meet with their client to discuss certain matters over the lawsuit itself rather than to rely on going through a third party mediator? Would they not want to discuss strategy as well as needing certain 'permission' rights from Nikki to disclose her financial worth even with the in loco parentis in place? Thus also Mrs. C. is looking at wanting to hold off in wanting to have Nikki go to such a meeting for her own best interest 'as and if' there is something that doesn't smell right. Working for the best interest for her.

Or maybe I just need to be quiet on the matter and wait for those with more knowledge to speak up.

If Nikki is going to put herself in the limelight, she is going to have to learn to deal with lawsuits, contract breakers, etc. -- and Whateley is a school. Carson is killing two birds with one Solicitor. The goal isn't to simply punish Nikki, but to also teach her how to deal with threats within the law, and without relying on brute force (whether magical or financial).

From a psychological standpoint, she just got a big scolding and punishment, but now she's being given the opportunity to regain some self respect by learning from her mistake and fighting for herself in the correct manner. And if she does learn from her mistake and negotiate a better settlement, then she naturally gets rewarded for her efforts and progress, reinforcing the lesson.

That is another contention that needs to be looked at.

Given that Mrs. Carson cannot be ethically involved does not mean that she cannot be viewed as looking out for Nikki's welfare. Yes, for all intents and purposes, she is very upset with Nikki for her actions. I say this just from the point of view as the reader and what we have been shown. She had done the same when she looked out for Kayda's situation. Given the timetable of events and how soon one act was taken care of to have to go through the process again could have upset her. She cannot risk the neutrality of the school given that there are those who I'm sure would like to shut it down. The MCO.

There is also of course Hekate herself. I believe it was her who staged the act of showing her death only to have it revealed later that it was not her body that was found but a doppelganger. If the info, as everyone has already stated, got out that she was alive, Nikki would have hell to pay as she would most likely go ballistic in her revenge thus not only endangering her life but the lives of those at the school and the school itself. My opinion. Thus Mrs. Carson is possibly using everything at her disposal to delay the process in the hopes of a. Teaching Nikki a lesson. b. Showing Nikki on how she has changed from when she first came to school and how others viewed her. c. investigate what is going on. d. trying to withhold information about the magic that was employed as if its divulged it could have everlasting effects on the 'norms'. e. have Nikki respect the magic that she can weld.

I could say the lawsuit is a ruse but perhaps its not. That is the hardest part to speculate on as we don't really have all the facts yet to base an answer of yea or nay.

Perhaps also they are also looking for where Hekate is so as to bring her down quietly so as not to enrage Nikki into doing something foolish or have her back to her common senses in the ramifications of future actions as with consequences.

elrodw wrote: Moreover, the question is WHY Ayla was told to tell Nikki to negotiate. That doesn't seem to have been covered in any of the options.

Simple, the lawsuit is real, and the punishment isn't the money, the punishment is to bring Nikki face-to-face in the flesh with the horrific results of her spell.

The true test of Nikki is to see how justified she still believes her actions were after seeing their actual consequences.

No remorse, and reluctantly Mrs. Carson would be forced to bring down the full repercussions against Sidhe Queenlet menacing humankind.

True remorse, and Mrs. Carson will swing fully behind Nikki, determined to protect the vulnerable girl in her care, determined to nuture the humanity she has, building it up as a balkward against the terrifying power she will one day wield.

A further thought came to me, which might molify those thinking that this will lead to large areas of the Amazon becoming Nikkidonia.

Mrs. Potter. (Hope I got the name right)
Lady A has a small ace up her sleeve in knowing how hard to push Nikki. Small, but still an ace.

annachie wrote: A further thought came to me, which might molify those thinking that this will lead to large areas of the Amazon becoming Nikkidonia.

Mrs. Potter. (Hope I got the name right)
Lady A has a small ace up her sleeve in knowing how hard to push Nikki. Small, but still an ace.

That Omniscient Morality License of Mrs. Potter's makes figuring out exactly who's planning what, for why, irritatingly difficult, personally...

Kettlekorn wrote: If Nikki is going to put herself in the limelight, she is going to have to learn to deal with lawsuits, contract breakers, etc. -- and Whateley is a school. Carson is killing two birds with one Solicitor. The goal isn't to simply punish Nikki, but to also teach her how to deal with threats within the law, and without relying on brute force (whether magical or financial).

The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries wrote: 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Phoenix Spiritus wrote: The true test of Nikki is to see how justified she still believes her actions were after seeing their actual consequences.

Her action against Solicitor was justified. Not legally, but if you're talking about remorse then you're talking about morality, not laws, and there was nothing immoral about what Nikki did. It was unwise, illegal, and bad ethics, but not immoral.

She should not feel bad for what she did to Solicitor. What she should feel bad for is poor decision making.

The spell is a vengeance spell, it's actions are disproportionate, visiting three times the suffering on the recipient of the spell than was inflicted on the caster.

'Morally' it is not justified against Solicitor, as he was no longer a danger to Nikki and targeting him with it was pure spite.

Contrary, against Hekate it was more then justified, in fact casting it probably saved her life, Jade's life and the lives of Skybolt and Cavilar too.

Those saying 'she was out of the Circle, she was safe' are wrong. She was still in a fight to her death against a powerful magic user who's actions that day had already included murdering Jade (yes she was still alive, but that wasn't because Hexate didn't kill her and mean her to stay dead).

When Nikki cast that spell Haxate ran, allowing the four of them to escape (barely). Since killing spells when already being exchanged, not to mention gunfire, rocket launches and flame throwers, it's a bit disingenuous to whine about a particular killing spell, one that isn't even actually a killing spell unless it's intended recipient first planned to kill the attacker.

The Hand returns harm threefold, the that the exact same casting of the spell only disfigured Solicitor, but 'killed' Hexate is the best defence Nikki has against charges of murder, her spell wouldn't of killed Hex if Hex hadn't been trying to kill Nikki first, it was pure self defence when cast against Hex.

Phoenix Spiritus wrote: The spell is a vengeance spell, it's actions are disproportionate, visiting three times the suffering on the recipient of the spell than was inflicted on the caster.

'Morally' it is not justified against Solicitor, as he was no longer a danger to Nikki and targeting him with it was pure spite.

There is nothing innately wrong with punishing people for causing harm after the fact. The problem is that punishments need to be fair, and we don't trust each other to be fair, so we established the convention of judges and juries to provide a more reliable way to sentence people to fair punishments. Therefor taking justice into your own hands is bad ethics, but not bad morality. Morality only comes into play if you get it wrong and give people punishments that are not fair. Of course, even when you get it right you're still committing an ethical offense against society, because society isn't willing to take the risk that you might get it wrong.

Point is, when determining whether Nikki was immoral in her action against Solicitor, all that should be considered is whether he deserved what she did to him. You think that the punishment was undeserved, and that's fine -- that is a valid reason to call her action immoral. That it was "vengeance" is not a valid reason to call the action immoral, only unethical.

My own view is that it was not undeserved. Solicitor knowingly helped an obvious villain kidnap two children. We don't know whether he knew specifics, but we do know that he did not bother to conceal his involvement from Nikki and Jade. That implies that he knew enough to at least not expect that they would ever have an opportunity to retaliate. He must have expected that they would be killed, enslaved, or something similarly severe. Given this, some pain and disfigurement on his part do not seem undeserved to me.

And yes, Nikki's spell had that three-fold component, but I don't have any innate problem with some punishments being several times more painful than the pain they are punishing. In fact, such punishments are necessary if you want "Crime doesn't pay" to be true in a world where some crimes have a less than 50% chance of being caught and punished. That's just math.

She's still a minor, insanely powerful as a mage, and she used an illegal spell. The powers-that-be have to try to correct her moral values while they can - which is that she doesn't take justice into her own hands like a vigilante. Was Solicitor complicit? Hell yes. To what degree? Only Maggie knows (although we can speculate). Did he deserve to be punished? No doubt. But it's not for Nikki to do once she got out of danger.

Being perfectly honest here, we had a difficult situation to write, we went through lots of imperfect permutations of how to handle it, and what we ended up with is also imperfect. After the vigilante speech Carson gave Charge and company (The Big Idea), there was no question in my mind that she was NOT going to let Nikki get away with vigilante justice if she could help it.

Spanner time.

You know. An argument could be made that as ruler in her own right she was well entitled to administer such justice as she saw fit for an assault on her royal personage.
I realize that was no doubt Auggy's thinking, and no doubt Nikki's too, and that that is the attitude that Mrs. Carson is trying to correct.
But in a legal sense, she could have the case tossed on procedural grounds claiming that the USA has no jurisdiction.

Lets not forget that she is a ruler of a country in a state of war. Or if you want, the leader of an armed resistance.
Given the level of Mythos magic being used, it's a reasonable assumption that Solicitor et al were operating as agents of that enemy she is at war with.

Personally I'm still hoping for Nikkidonia myself

Her kingdom has no legal standing, territorial or jurisdictional rights. She doesn't have a leg to stand on.

A ruler of a 'state' no other country recognises, carrying out disproportionate punishment as judge, jury and executioner on United States jurisdiction.

An equally valid claim by the US is that she is deranged, believes herself to be the reincarnation of a fictional race, and is proven dangerous, even murderous.

Now, most Juries taken from US citizens would be more likely to believe which claim?

If her act was committed on American soil then the claim of diplomatic sovereignty will not justify her actions. If she is also not registered with the American Consulate than her claims could be in question as there is no diplomatic channels open. This is just a thought. Without the full knowledge if her country has diplomatic status I can only speculate that she has none so she could be considered an illegal alien if she were to go that route.

As I possibly put my foot deeper in down my throat I'm hoping I'm not forced to have it come out the other end.

Agreed. However, I do not believe a damage suit by Solicitor would get anywhere.
First, how does he prove Fey did anything?
Second, even if he does prove it, when the jury hears why, there is no way they find for him.

The truth is diplomatic immunity doesn't count in her case. Her country died with the Sundering thousands, if not 10s of thousands or even millions of years ago back when Pangaea still existed. She hasn't done anything to establish or prove she is royalty and her claim is so old over any lands which would have once been part of the Court of the West in the Five Fold Court, no nation will acknowledge it. That would be like in a science fiction series a race of aliens coming back to Earth millions of years after leaving and saying they are the rightful rulers and expecting the population to just roll over for them.

But this is all a moot point, Aunghadhail is gone and Nikki needs to realize she can't simply go around expecting others to treat her like royalty. She is starting to regain her humanity and that is the point of these events happening, whether the lawsuit is real and to what extent the Solicitor is connected to it are unimportant for the purposes of this story. For what happens to Fey in the long run, yes, but for Nikki learning her lesson and regaining her humanity those things don't need to be known.

It seems we are running circles over some of these matters. We understand that Nikki needs to learn a lesson; to regain her humanity in the sense of what she did was wrong and to show how her arrogance was starting to affect who she is.

I'm feeling we are missing something. The lawsuit is affecting Nikki in other respects: Financially, emotionally, and physically.

We are missing the "why" for the Solicitor bringing suit against Nikki. It doesn't make sense for him to do so AND the suit is suspiciously convenient as it gives Carson a method for reining in Nikki's thoughts of reigning... I mean.... reining in Nikki's regal attitude and thinking she is above the law.

I liked the story. It's believable to me that this lawsuit could have been filed, and I think that Mrs. Carson is right to try to isolate Fey a bit to make sure that she learns something from this. I look forward to more.

The thread is long, so I apologize if this has already been raised, but the "threefold" nature of the spell works even more against Fey in that part of a self defense defense is proportionality of response. Punching someone when they're trying to punch you is proportional. Breaking their arm for slapping you generally isn't.

FuzzyBoots wrote: I liked the story. It's believable to me that this lawsuit could have been filed, and I think that Mrs. Carson is right to try to isolate Fey a bit to make sure that she learns something from this. I look forward to more.

This was precisely what we found writing the story. The situation was real-world; lawsuits are filed over all kinds of stupid stuff these days, and Mrs. Carson did not have an easy out. The answer wasn't neat and tidy; she has to walk a tightrope with neutrality, deceit, and trying to get her students to learn. In other words, like real life.

I'm actually glad the comment ran long and were so involved. It meant that y'all thought about this one hard. And no-one could come up with an obvious "But Mrs. C should have done X, Y, and Z and the problem was solved." As EE and I found while writing this, there wasn't a cut-and-dried solution.

jmhyp wrote: We are missing the "why" for the Solicitor bringing suit against Nikki. It doesn't make sense for him to do so AND the suit is suspiciously convenient as it gives Carson a method for reining in Nikki's thoughts of reigning... I mean.... reining in Nikki's regal attitude and thinking she is above the law.

Actually we know the why. The problem is the world 'we' regular humans live in. We live in world of non-super powered villains or hero's. Ours in a sense is a mundane world. Now imagine you live in a world of the super powered and such. Think of the lawsuits, insurance premiums as well as other factors involved.

We never saw in the early comics where if a building such as the Daily Bugle or Daily Planet were damaged, destroyed or so forth where it continued on into the next comic. I'm referring to the 'very' early comics. The writers just wrote a story with out continuity.

Now comics are nearly real world in some of their beings. Superhero's can be sued for damage to property. Lex Luthor could bring suit to Superman. He is a businessman after all.

In our own world we have frivolous lawsuits thrown up by nearly anybody. Hot coffee spilled while driving, blame the ones who sold it to you. Your neighbors dog taking a dump on your lawn. Just sue. Convicts can't get porn mags or movies, bring about a lawsuit, (yes its real, look it up). Oh and there are convicts that know the laws a lot better than a lawyer. They have time and can take courses in prison.

Now we can have hero's being sued by villains for damage to them. " Super Underpants took away my ability to rob banks. I can't lift the door off the hinges like I used to, I can barely lift a book now."

So the threat of a lawsuit is possible. Hero's are more vulnerable as they will follow the rules and obey. Don't expect Supervillain Nitro to show up to court if sued by a hero tho. Hey he's a villain an breaks the law anyways.

Now also think of this. If one villain succeeds, why can't others follow.

One of the biggest problems for villains sueing Nikki in this case would be other villains not wanting it to be made public. The ones wanting to keep things quiet could decide that the best way to make the case go away is to make the person suing go away.
I can see Whateley using it's connections to remind people of the problems this suit could make for them.

sam105 wrote: One of the biggest problems for villains sueing Nikki in this case would be other villains not wanting it to be made public. The ones wanting to keep things quiet could decide that the best way to make the case go away is to make the person suing go away.
I can see Whateley using it's connections to remind people of the problems this suit could make for them.

Interesting idea. But wouldn't that also put those in charge in a precarious situation in that the board of directors or staff, Mrs. Carson cannot become involved, are using their stature to interfere with the law? Remember Whateley was founded by both villains and hero's to 'teach' their children and others. I'm sure its written in their charter that they will not interfere in all legal matters as much as they'd like to. Thus they are bound to follow a certain set of rules no matter how distasteful the outcome may be.

But I'm also sure that there are those that can see how another person is being 'railroaded' and if properly handled it could be used against them. But to have the individual 'disappear' would only bring the situation into the spotlight more. Its a delicate balance for those involved.

I am not talking about people on the villain side helping Nikki. I am talking about people who do not want there involvement in this case to see the light of day and who will do about anything to make the case go away. Self Interest on the part of the syndicat or Hectares master. I am meaning Whateley protecting its students from outside attack and letting people know if this goes to trial everybody's dirty secrets will be exposed.

Ib12us wrote:

jmhyp wrote: We are missing the "why" for the Solicitor bringing suit against Nikki. It doesn't make sense for him to do so AND the suit is suspiciously convenient as it gives Carson a method for reining in Nikki's thoughts of reigning... I mean.... reining in Nikki's regal attitude and thinking she is above the law.

Actually we know the why.

Perhaps, you misunderstand. Why would the Solicitor want people to find out "I lured a teenage girl into a trap and she had the gall to hex me."? Who is going to seek this guy out to represent them if he admits that? His job is having clients who trust him and he's admitting to selling out a client. It makes little sense. Unless he's hoping to retire on Nikki's modelling work. But again, he's only asking for 4 years of work and she can decide to do Walmart catalog ads instead of high paying magazine ads. So he's not really maximizing his nest egg. That is the Why that makes no sense.

If you remember the end of the story, his clients were already leaving him as fasr as they could.

No I missed that.

Valentine wrote: If you remember the end of the story, his clients were already leaving him as fasr as they could.

Other actions that occurred.

Hekate was in tears, shaking in terror.

“You didn’t see! It got him, and less than a minute later the front of his face just turned to rot! Right there on the plane! People with cell phones must have alerted the press, because we were practically mobbed by cameras as he tried to get off the plane. He used to be handsome, a good looking guy. Now his face looks like a skull! And the way his hair is falling out – even his eyebrows! What in God’s name makes your eyebrows fall out?”

The old man leaned forward. “And this frightens you because…?”

“He did nothing! He lied about a contract. That’s all. That’s nothing compared to what I’ve done! What I have yet to do. I promised lives to the elementals – I swore oaths! But she invoked the rule of three… If Solicitor is paying that much, what will happen to me?”

Not only did he lose clients, he lost his ability to garner new ones as well as being disfigured. Thus he has cause to sue.

I am thinking of three things pulling on Nikki and Mrs Carlson. One the authors trying to get a Nikki that they can use. Two Whateley trying to get Nikki under control. Three keeping the syndicate and others from thanking that they can attack Whateley students and then turnaround and sue them.

And you're all making one fundamental assumption in these last few speculations. Actually, a couple. Let me address the second one; I leave the first as an exercise for the students.

2) Is Hekate a reliable witness of exactly what happened, or is she perhaps given to a little hyperbole, because, after all, the same spell was loosed on her and she IS pleading for sanctuary and protection, so she might be a little inclined to exaggeration.

elrodw wrote: And you're all making one fundamental assumption in these last few speculations. Actually, a couple. Let me address the second one; I leave the first as an exercise for the students.

2) Is Hekate a reliable witness of exactly what happened, or is she perhaps given to a little hyperbole, because, after all, the same spell was loosed on her and she IS pleading for sanctuary and protection, so she might be a little inclined to exaggeration.

I thought we already discussed the matter of where if Nikki was to find out Hekate was alive she would go ballistic in wanting to kill her, thus Mrs. Carson not wanting her to find out.

Unless and that is if certain parties know that the spell has 'not' taken effect and is still in effect and may be trying to prevent its happening. But I'm sure I'm barking up the wrong tree on that notion.

ohhh the curse is still active on the Solicitor, the "financial damage" he is doing to Nikki comes back threefold.

jmhyp wrote: Why would the Solicitor want people to find out "I lured a teenage girl into a trap and she had the gall to hex me."? Who is going to seek this guy out to represent them if he admits that?

Solicitor doesn't need to admit anything. All he needs to do is claim that she cast the spell on him because she was upset about how her photo shoot went, or something along those lines. That is a much more believable story than Nikki's claim that he was so upset about her rejection that he helped her evil nemesis to kidnap her for a dark ritual.

As an aside to this case, what are the legalities involving magic? What magic is legal in the court of law in the WU? What magic can be used as evidence in the court of law? Are any mutant powers admissible in court at all? If the courts don't acknowledge the existence of magic(there's almost no chance of this, but still), then everything in this case comes down to a 'He said, she said' situation. Granted this would be a civil case, as opposed to a criminal case, so Solicitor's case would be easier to prove, but it does require the courts believing in magic.

elrodw wrote: And you're all making one fundamental assumption in these last few speculations. Actually, a couple. Let me address the second one; I leave the first as an exercise for the students.

2) Is Hekate a reliable witness of exactly what happened, or is she perhaps given to a little hyperbole, because, after all, the same spell was loosed on her and she IS pleading for sanctuary and protection, so she might be a little inclined to exaggeration.

We're in the situatoin of an audience at a play, discussing things during the break.

We know what happened, but all of the rest of the characters will be operating from limited information.

We know that the Syndicate passed on copies of the surveillance tapes to the Necromancer, which is how Hekate and Darrow worked out how Jade is doing things.

Whether Hartford has been able to get copies from her Syndicate contacts hasn't even been discussed. She would probably pass them on to Carson, as it concerns the welfare of five students. Considering the way that the Syndicate has been behaving towards Whateley Neutrality after Halloween, they'll have to do something.

They'll definitely be watching. Two students! Destroyed a Syndicate base! Two students!

You can bet they'll be watching...

And never mind the reactions of the rest of the magical, community, both black hat and white. :lol

I'm looking forward to the next part, can't you tell?

Regarding the legalities of magic... I would think that, in the end, it's about making a claim and convincing the judge and jury that your claim is not bullshit.
That magic exists is pretty much an accepted fact in the whateleyverse; I don't think Solicitor's lawyer would have any trouble establishing that; Nikki's counsel would probably concede the point as pointless arguing about it.
That the Black Hand is a known spell with certain features that make its use strongly frowned upon is probably not hard to establish either. If Nikki's counsel does not concede the point, a few expert witnesses would do it.
Now, convincing a jury that (a) a Black Hand spell was used on Solicitor, and (b) Nikki was the one who cast it... that might be harder. But maybe not impossible: there might be experts on magical forensics who could determine those points.
The fact that Carson and the school did not dismiss the lawsuit as a frivolous one that would be laughed out of court suggests that such magical forensic experts do exist, and therefore that there was a good chance of losing the lawsuit. Thus the settlement.

Blue Moose wrote: If the courts don't acknowledge the existence of magic

Then the case gets tossed.
"She used magic on you? There's no such thing as magic"

But we know that's not the case.

A copy of the Syndicate records, including the conversation between Hektate and Nikki, Jade's murder etcetera would sink the Solicitor as an accessory to murder, kidnapping and torture.

It would also prove Nikki's guilt on casting the spell, and completely destroy the neutrality agreement over Whateley, since 2 students( children not at full power yet ) completely destroyed a Syndicate base.

Dawnfyre wrote: completely destroy the neutrality agreement over Whateley, since 2 students( children not at full power yet ) completely destroyed a Syndicate base.

Technically they blew up their own base, neither Jade nor Nikki did any major structural damage to it, it was perfectly fine until the syndicate officers triggered the self destruct!

I do not see how two students defending themselves from attack would be seen as breaking the neutrality agreement. Self defence should be allowed under any neutrality agreement. Let your base be used to attack Whateley students loose your base.

Riddle of Sappho, Canto V wrote: "The kid who did this is a follower, not a leader. And the kid who set up the whole plot is a projective empath. He can psychically influence others. It's not clear that the killer would have acted if not for that influence," Mrs. Shugendo said.

"In those conditions," the DPA lawyer, spoke, "the DPA would use psychic scanning to check for such influence, and the presence of psychic influence would be a mitigating factor in both the charges and the sentence."

"I see. That type of evidence is not admissible in a New Hampshire court." Attorney General Moore was silent for a bit. "Okay, I'll agree to that deal. What about the mastermind he supposedly fingered?"

This is what I was getting at. If I read this right, the State of New Hampshire does not allow evidence derived from psychic powers in the court of law. (Canon authors, please correct me if I'm wrong.) If that's the case, then legality of psychic powers and ,by extension, magic as both a means of gathering evidence, as well as a 'weapon' can be argued in a case by case basis, as well as a state by state basis. How magic is legally defined in Missouri, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire is an important point in this proceeding.

If the court in question doesn't allow magical evidence that Nikki cast the Black Hand, How can the plaintiff(Be it Solicitor or some other person) adequately prove their point, aside from putting Nikki on the stand, where she can invoke the Fifth Amendment?

Civil court is generally more open to evidence and other things than criminal court. So it may be eligible.

If the court in question doesn't allow magical evidence that Nikki cast the Black Hand, How can the plaintiff(Be it Solicitor or some other person) adequately prove their point, aside from putting Nikki on the stand, where she can invoke the Fifth Amendment?

How many people who have evoked the 5th were not 'seen' as hiding something? Even though most use it not to incriminate themselves by using it also leads others to believe that you are hiding something. Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't when invoked.

Ib12us wrote:

If the court in question doesn't allow magical evidence that Nikki cast the Black Hand, How can the plaintiff(Be it Solicitor or some other person) adequately prove their point, aside from putting Nikki on the stand, where she can invoke the Fifth Amendment?

How many people who have evoked the 5th were not 'seen' as hiding something? Even though most use it not to incriminate themselves by using it also leads others to believe that you are hiding something. Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't when invoked.

Why would Nikki take the stand in the first place?

I don't think Fey needed to be dealt with in the first place.
Saying the Black Hand is an illegal spell doesn't make sense, since there shouldn't be any laws on the books related to it. More to the point, I might expect it to be against school rules but not actually addressed in law due to it's rarity.
Given that Whateley Academy knew about the situation, if they wanted to punish Fey for a vengeance spell, it should have been immediate. Not delayed by months.
Also the choice to use the lawsuit as punishment violates the neutrality agreement. If an adult outside the school can successfully threaten a student inside the school, especially if the adult in question has ties to a known faction, then the neutrality is meaningless. By the dictates of this story Carson can choose to ignore neutrality at a whim. If I was a super hero parent of a student, and I got word of this, I would immediately threaten to pull my child unless Carson was removed from her position.
Further, I would've expected Nikki's emotional stability to be taken into account. As a general rule, you don't want to force a situation where an expected outcome is a greater than 10% chance the student will go Dark Phoenix. Especially if you put yourself in a situation (like Carson did by conducting this alone in her office) where you would have to meet power with power, risking the student's death. At this point in the story it's been a bit over a week since Jamie died, and a bit under two months since Aunghadhail died.

If I were to have addressed the issue (and I completely disagree that it needed to be addressed), I would've back-dated the story to sometime in January, and had the punishment handled by the Magical Arts department (I understand that this is a problem, since that month is pretty well accounted for, but again I think you are addressing an issue that doesn't exist). Carson may have been involved to scare Nikki straight, but not by violating neutrality. By it being a legitimate punishment, you avoid the sticky situation with Ayla; TK is aware that punishments happen.

EDIT: Re-reading Christmas Elves, I'm pretty sure the Necromancer is wrong when he calls the black hand a Sidhe curse. He would've actually been disappointed in the results if he had witnessed it take Hekate. In the story, Nikki comes up with it on the spot without Aunghadhail's help, and bases it on the rule of three and the law of similarity. Neither the rule of three or the law of similarity were part of Sidhe magic (both only being about 4000 year old, long after the sundering). It also wouldn't be Mythos magic, the curse would just be within the standard spell framework that most of the Magical Art's faculty would use.

Wow! So much text... Can't read it all right now, so I'll just respond to this:

ThaleDison wrote: Saying the Black Hand is an illegal spell doesn't make sense, since there shouldn't be any laws on the books related to it.

Well, it's not like laws forbid every single specific variation of a crime, they forbid generalized things,

So, the Black Hand might be an illegal spell because it violates some laws that govern what legal spellcraft is or is not... What those might be, I don't know and don't have the time to speculate...

Well, it's not like laws forbid every single specific variation of a crime, they forbid generalized things,

So, the Black Hand might be an illegal spell because it violates some laws that govern what legal spellcraft is or is not... What those might be, I don't know and don't have the time to speculate...

You may be right about there being a general law against vengeance spells, but I would expect that to be criminal and not civil. You'd have to show it was a vengeance spell. I would imagine if this went to civil trial, the MCO would try and make it criminal. That's a bad situation all around.

ThaleDison wrote:

Well, it's not like laws forbid every single specific variation of a crime, they forbid generalized things,

So, the Black Hand might be an illegal spell because it violates some laws that govern what legal spellcraft is or is not... What those might be, I don't know and don't have the time to speculate...

You may be right about there being a general law against vengeance spells, but I would expect that to be criminal and not civil. You'd have to show it was a vengeance spell. I would imagine if this went to civil trial, the MCO would try and make it criminal. That's a bad situation all around.

Yes it is and given the chance I'm sure the MCO would love toenact such a matter. Also given that the lawsuit was filed, not from the school but possibly from the person that was actually harmed by such spell it could be considered a first case if it does go to court. How would you handle it? Buy off the individual to prevent it from going to court by arbitration? Or have someone take out said individual? Also what if its a third party? They could file it in absentee on behave of the injured party.

To say Fey didn't need to be dealt with in the first place is just allowing her to get away with murder. Are you saying she shouldn't be punished for her action? Just because its a rarity does not condone the action that was perpetrated.

The neutrality that is given is for students to not be harassed in their quest for going to school. It does not preclude them from being above the law and since the act was conducted outside of the schools vicinity does make it a lawbreaking incident.

Ib12us wrote:

ThaleDison wrote:

Well, it's not like laws forbid every single specific variation of a crime, they forbid generalized things,

So, the Black Hand might be an illegal spell because it violates some laws that govern what legal spellcraft is or is not... What those might be, I don't know and don't have the time to speculate...

You may be right about there being a general law against vengeance spells, but I would expect that to be criminal and not civil. You'd have to show it was a vengeance spell. I would imagine if this went to civil trial, the MCO would try and make it criminal. That's a bad situation all around.

Yes it is and given the chance I'm sure the MCO would love toenact such a matter. Also given that the lawsuit was filed, not from the school but possibly from the person that was actually harmed by such spell it could be considered a first case if it does go to court. How would you handle it? Buy off the individual to prevent it from going to court by arbitration? Or have someone take out said individual? Also what if its a third party? They could file it in absentee on behave of the injured party.

To say Fey didn't need to be dealt with in the first place is just allowing her to get away with murder. Are you saying she shouldn't be punished for her action? Just because its a rarity does not condone the action that was perpetrated.

The neutrality that is given is for students to not be harassed in their quest for going to school. It does not preclude them from being above the law and since the act was conducted outside of the schools vicinity does make it a lawbreaking incident.

Actually it does protect them from the law while going to school. They are subject to the Tribal Laws of the Were tribe, anything happening off campus has to be put through the extradition process. If this wasn't the case, Jobe, Jadis, and other seeds would be continuously harassed by various police agencies.

Yes your correct in that. I thought when it occurred (I probably missed the date/time) that the incident occurred over the holiday and they were not protected at that time. I could still be wrong if they are during the holidays.

To say Fey didn't need to be dealt with in the first place is just allowing her to get away with murder. Are you saying she shouldn't be punished for her action? Just because its a rarity does not condone the action that was perpetrated.

I don't think Nikki intended the spell to kill Hekate, and I would have expected her to have been punished for the spell immediately upon returning to Whateley. Timing is an issue here, it's not like Nikki did this the next day. She and Jade were still in danger when this was done.

Yes your correct in that. I thought when it occurred (I probably missed the date/time) that the incident occurred over the holiday and they were not protected at that time. I could still be wrong if they are during the holidays.

It occurred over Christmas break while Nikki and Jade were in St. Louis. However, the lawsuit occurred during the school year. By your logic, if a student committed crimes with their parent over break, and then returned to Whateley, they could be arrested without violating neutrality.

If they break the law away from Whateley they aren't protected by the neutrality. That's why when Jadis leaves campus she is so careful to do everything legally, going well beyond the standards of most other people.
Fey committed the crime outside of school. It would be annoying for prosecutors to gain access to her, but they could with just some extra paperwork.
Also this is a civil suit it's different from a criminal proceeding. The neutrality isn't in effect here, because no one is going to arrest her, no one is attempting to keep her from school, or threatening her family. They're attacking her financially through legal means. The neutrality agreement doesn't let people get away with breaking laws, and so long as the person doing it is careful it doesn't mean squat for finances.

If they break the law away from Whateley they aren't protected by the neutrality. That's why when Jadis leaves campus she is so careful to do everything legally, going well beyond the standards of most other people.

Jadis is an exception, I don't believe she obeys the law for the reason that you state. There are plenty of students that wouldn't be careful. If they could be prosecuted at the school, there would be very few children of criminals at Whateley, and it wouldn't be considered safe for their kind.

The neutrality isn't in effect here, because no one is going to arrest her, no one is attempting to keep her from school, or threatening her family.

You may be right about this, but I don't think so.

The neutrality agreement doesn't let people get away with breaking laws, and so long as the person doing it is careful it doesn't mean squat for finances.

That's not what Carson told Ayla.

ThaleDison wrote:

If they break the law away from Whateley they aren't protected by the neutrality. That's why when Jadis leaves campus she is so careful to do everything legally, going well beyond the standards of most other people.

Jadis is an exception, I don't believe she obeys the law for the reason that you state. There are plenty of students that wouldn't be careful. If they could be prosecuted at the school, there would be very few children of criminals at Whateley, and it wouldn't be considered safe for their kind.

The neutrality isn't in effect here, because no one is going to arrest her, no one is attempting to keep her from school, or threatening her family.

You may be right about this, but I don't think so.

The neutrality agreement doesn't let people get away with breaking laws, and so long as the person doing it is careful it doesn't mean squat for finances.

That's not what Carson told Ayla.

How many parents have their kids commit crimes with them?
If your parent commits a crime the state cannot legally charge the child with anything. If the child breaks the law and their parent is a big time criminal they can and often will come down on them like a ton of bricks. But so long as the child keeps his or her nose clean, they have all the same rights as anyone else. So that argument doesn't work here.

With the finances, I should have been more specific, it's definitely nuanced.
With Ayla, he was going to get back at his bullies by attacking their parents and families financially. This is a direct threat against a family member of a student and a violation of the neutrality.
The lawsuit against Fey is against her directly, being done through proper channels for legitimate reasons. It's not frivolous, it's not against her family directly, it's against her.
They seem similar on the surface, but they're being done through two different methods and two different reasons.

How many parents have their kids commit crimes with them?

At least two that we know of (The Troll Bride, and Bell Witch). Although one of those didn't actually want her "daughter" going to Whateley.

The lawsuit against Fey is against her directly, being done through proper channels for legitimate reasons. It's not frivolous, it's not against her family directly, it's against her.

I would agree with you if it was from within the school, but this Carson letting through an outside threat. "Well Mr. Superhero, I can't hurt you, but I can sue your kid at Whateley", I could imagine this working against Dredz or Iron Star.
I'm not sure that I agree that the suit is legitimate. On the surface it is, but given the criminal activity preceding it, it was filed with unclean hands (if filed by the Solicitor).

Given the potential badness for Solicitor, he should have the suit dismissed if he didn't file it himself.

ThaleDison wrote:

How many parents have their kids commit crimes with them?

At least two that we know of (The Troll Bride, and Bell Witch). Although one of those didn't actually want her "daughter" going to Whateley.

The lawsuit against Fey is against her directly, being done through proper channels for legitimate reasons. It's not frivolous, it's not against her family directly, it's against her.

I would agree with you if it was from within the school, but this Carson letting through an outside threat. "Well Mr. Superhero, I can't hurt you, but I can sue your kid at Whateley", I could imagine this working against Dredz or Iron Star.
I'm not sure that I agree that the suit is legitimate. On the surface it is, but given the criminal activity preceding it, it was filed with unclean hands (if filed by the Solicitor).

Given the potential badness for Solicitor, he should have the suit dismissed if he didn't file it himself.

And how many real lawsuits have been filed by criminals against their accusers for a) using to much force b) for allowing them to file frivolous lawsuits that clog up the courts.

"In answer to your question, you are being sued by the Solicitor." She watched Nikki's jaw drop and her eyes nearly bulge out of their sockets. "For damages caused by your revenge spell."

"But ...," Nikki sputtered, "they can't DO that!"

"They can, Miss Reilly, and they have," the older woman replied in a frosty tone.

"I'll fight it. Any way I can," Nikki countered, her visage growing and angry. "He ... he tried to enslave me!"

"And if you do choose to fight," Mrs. Carson's voice was still cool, "Whateley and the Magic Arts Department will be forced to testify against you because the magic you used was not in line with the situation you were in."

"What?" Nikki almost screamed.

"You used a revenge spell, plain and simple. And that is not something that we can condone in any way, shape, or form. It also happens to be quite illegal," she added.

ThaleDison wrote:

How many parents have their kids commit crimes with them?

At least two that we know of (The Troll Bride, and Bell Witch). Although one of those didn't actually want her "daughter" going to Whateley.

Three Sir! (Setup and Knockoff) Possibly four (Ribbon and Lady Havoc didn't really have any legal standing to go after Marquis.)

The lawsuit against Fey is against her directly, being done through proper channels for legitimate reasons. It's not frivolous, it's not against her family directly, it's against her.

I would agree with you if it was from within the school, but this Carson letting through an outside threat. "Well Mr. Superhero, I can't hurt you, but I can sue your kid at Whateley", I could imagine this working against Dredz or Iron Star.
I'm not sure that I agree that the suit is legitimate. On the surface it is, but given the criminal activity preceding it, it was filed with unclean hands (if filed by the Solicitor).

Given the potential badness for Solicitor, he should have the suit dismissed if he didn't file it himself.

Mega-Girl would be more likely for a lawsuit against, given her underage superheroing.

"He ... he tried to enslave me!"

"And if you do choose to fight," Mrs. Carson's voice was still cool, "Whateley and the Magic Arts Department will be forced to testify against you because the magic you used was not in line with the situation you were in."

Carson is wrong here both morally and legally. She wouldn't be forced to testify. If they were asked to testify, they would have to admit it was a vengeance spell. The proper answer is a counter-suit due to the enslavement, where Carson and the Magic Arts Department would be "forced" to admit that the Solicitor was complicit in enslavement. Carson violates neutrality here. It is within her discretion to punish Nikki for the vengeance spell (although the timing is phenomenally bad); however, not by allowing outside interference.

Mega-Girl would be more likely for a lawsuit against, given her underage superheroing.

Marty was my first thought for the example, but she doesn't have super hero parents (just a regular hero parent). I don't think we know who Iron Star's parents are, but he seems like a legacy.

Valentine wrote:

ThaleDison wrote:

How many parents have their kids commit crimes with them?

At least two that we know of (The Troll Bride, and Bell Witch). Although one of those didn't actually want her "daughter" going to Whateley.

Three Sir! (Setup and Knockoff) Possibly four (Ribbon and Lady Havoc didn't really have any legal standing to go after Marquis.)

The lawsuit against Fey is against her directly, being done through proper channels for legitimate reasons. It's not frivolous, it's not against her family directly, it's against her.

I would agree with you if it was from within the school, but this Carson letting through an outside threat. "Well Mr. Superhero, I can't hurt you, but I can sue your kid at Whateley", I could imagine this working against Dredz or Iron Star.
I'm not sure that I agree that the suit is legitimate. On the surface it is, but given the criminal activity preceding it, it was filed with unclean hands (if filed by the Solicitor).

Given the potential badness for Solicitor, he should have the suit dismissed if he didn't file it himself.

And what about Monolith or is it Stronghold now? As with Marty.

Mega-Girl would be more likely for a lawsuit against, given her underage superheroing.

The Whateley Admin could also be using this as a teachable moment for the rest of the students.

The first day in English class they show the video of the court appearances of an inarticukate super-hero and an articulate super-villain, where the super-villain runs rings around the super-hero.

The whole "win the battle, but lose the war", and "actions have consequences" mentality.

---

There's definitely a teachable moment for the students and staff from the Magic Arts dept.

The whole Rule-of-Threefold-Return means that you shouldn't cast any form of spell on anyone else, that you wouldn't be happy with someone else casting it at you.

Granted that this spell just meant that all Solicitor's pigeon's were coming home to roost, but it's a good example of how spell-casters should be really careful with using magic to affect things.

Less is more.

Also i'd be interested in hearing Tatsuo Ito's take on this form of meta-combat...

ThaleDison wrote: "Well Mr. Superhero, I can't hurt you, but I can sue your kid at Whateley", I could imagine this working against Dredz or Iron Star.

How would that be considered at all legal????? Any judge would laugh it out of court.

Suing the hero for damages would be legal. Suing his kid if said kid destroyed a house or a car would be legal.
Fey did the damage, she is liable.

Now as for the kids of criminals who committed crimes.
In most or all cases they were not positively identified by police, they may be suspects but no charges were put in place.
In the case of Nacht, she made a deal with a superhero to get out of any charges.
Go read some Bad Seed stories when they out for shopping trips. Jadis is very clear that any crimes she commits will get her sent to jail, Whateley or not. Other students have been threatened with charges for superheroing without a license, and others have left the scene of a crime quickly, to avoid the police.
Whateley isn't a get out of jail free card. They get a bit more leeway, but if they're seen committing a crime, they can be charged.

As for the lawsuit. We honestly need to see a lot more about it to say one way or another just how bad it is. We're missing way too much critical information.

I mostly just wanted to vent some steam at a story that really riles me up. It's the sign of good writer that they can evoke a strong emotion.

I think the proper fallout for Mrs. Carson would be a wave of frivolous lawsuits and counter-suits filed at the student body. Because while we know that the suit against Nikki isn't frivolous (although again, unclean hands), from a third-party perspective in-universe it should look frivolous.

Those cases are for Jadis committing a crime and being arrested outside of Whateley.

E. E. Nalley wrote:

Valentine wrote: The trial would be interesting. I can see Fey's lawyer, "What exactly did your spell do?"
Fey replies, "It returns three times the evil done by the target to the target, so if he's done no evil nothing would have happened to him."

And then she gets popped for perjury when the expert witness shows that's not how the spell works. Keep in, the spell Nikki cast is not a justice spell it has no ability to see the good or evil and a person's heart. It is a revenge spell and the revenge it is dishing out is based entirely on the perception of the person casting the spell and how you build a caster thinks the target is. Which is why it is a spell classified at least as assault and a case can be made for attempted murder. This is why the black hand is so hideously illegal to cast and has such dire consequences for those who cast it. Pretty much there is no part in this where Nikki comes out on top in a court of law and any lawyer worth their membership in the bar will tell her so.

Joined by greed and deed and the blood rage freed

The hour comes when you will heed
Those sorrows gained you by your creed

Pursued by whom you’ve pained and slain
By all the hatred you have gained
By souls betrayed and souls once chained

Let justice answer cruelty
Let all your works return times three
I order now, SO MOTE IT BE!

It's looks like a justice spell enforced by an outside entity with the power to see good and evil deeds (not necessarily hearts). It would've been nice to have a clarification in-universe as to why this wouldn't have been a justice spell. Nothing in the spell itself really indicates it's based on Nikki's perceptions.
Also, while she was out of the Fool's Circle Nikki wasn't exactly safe. Hekate and the Solicitor were both still threat when the spell was cast.

This was an admittedly imperfect solution by the administration that Mrs. Carson stated (in setup pieces) involved the DPA and Trustees. Also recall that in the setup pieces, Ms. Grimes said very explicitly that she wasn't sure it was the Black Hand when she saw what happened to the Solicitor, but she WAS sure when she saw what happened to the simulcrum of Hekate.

So could they have punished her earlier? For what? They weren't sure.

Does Whateley protect students from off-campus crimes? No. It is not a sanctuary students can flee to after they've been nasty to the outside world. That's been shown in canon; instead, it is a protection against overzealous outsiders who want to persecute the mutant kids (or use them to get to known villains). So Nikki is not safe from civil or criminal prosecution for things done off-campus.

Now, as was asked before, what's REALLY going on here? You, the readers, can only speculate. There are hints, but nothing concrete, except that Nikki is being punished for the illegal spell in a way that will get through to her - her modeling income. The administration and faculty know that she needs to be responsible using her power, or else - badness for the whole world potentially.

Do you KNOW that Mrs. Carson hasn't been in contact with Nikki's mom and dad about this? Do you KNOW that the Solicitor is behind this? Do you KNOW that someone didn't file this on behalf of the Solicitor specifically to make Nikki feel the heat? Do you KNOW that there's even a lawsuit or alternatively whether the funding is being put in escrow for when she graduates or learns her lesson?

Finally, ask yourselves this question. You're in Mrs. Carson's shoes. What do you do with a teenage mage who's become arrogant by her spirit, and is powerful enough to be a threat to the whole world? She's used forbidden magic. She needs to be taught a lesson. For the sake of many, you dare not tell her that Hekate is still alive, but you also dare not let her be prosecuted for a murder that really didn't happen (she has a DFA tag, after all). Now what would YOU do?

ThaleDison wrote: It's looks like a justice spell enforced by an outside entity with the power to see good and evil deeds (not necessarily hearts). It would've been nice to have a clarification in-universe as to why this wouldn't have been a justice spell. Nothing in the spell itself really indicates it's based on Nikki's perceptions.
Also, while she was out of the Fool's Circle Nikki wasn't exactly safe. Hekate and the Solicitor were both still threat when the spell was cast.

Ok, first there is no such thing as a 'Justice' spell. Magic doesn't work that way and even if it did, no mage in their right mind is going to pay the essence cost and take on the karma debt for the actions of a third party. That's just nuts. Who would this outside entity be? And why on Earth would you take responsibility for their actions?

Fey is not a judge, police officer, government official, or monarch of any nation on Earth and so has NO authority to dispense 'justice' real or imagined. Fey used magic to commit aggravated battery on solicitor, permanently disfiguring him after the fact, when he was miles and away and no physical threat to her. Under the law what she did was illegal.

Now, let's talk about neutrality.

Whateley's Neutrality agreement is a gentleman's agreement between heroes and villains. Neither side will attack the school, nor attempt to use the students and families as leverage. Anyone breaking this rule means the other heroes and villains put aside their differences and hunt down the perpetrator. This agreement has nothing to do with any government and is not a 'get out of jail free' pass. As was shown with Quick draw, and Tansy and others. Neutrality between heroes and villains will NOT save you from the consequences of breaking the law. The school will turn students over to the authorities after proper protocol and due process has been carried out.

There are some who may not like what is happening to Fey but it IS what SHOULD be happening to her under realistic conditions of the world itself.

If Fay had not used this or another illegal spell on solicitor could she have sued him for all of his money and used this as a way to get back at him?

Sure, you can always sue somebody. But do you have any evidence to back your claim? For instance, I suppose Fey might sue him for "emotional distress..." but how would she show that he had even done anything, much less that his acts caused her distress? All she would have would be Jade's testimony and, maybe, Cavalier and Skybolt's (I'm not sure that they even saw anything that could impute blame to Solicitor). And Jade is not really a good witness; she has documented psychological issues and is a close friend of hers, that is, hardly impartial. Cav & Sky are even worse.

sam105 wrote: If Fay had not used this or another illegal spell on solicitor could she have sued him for all of his money and used this as a way to get back at him?

In the United States you can sue anyone for anything. EXCEPT matters of Race, sex, religion or national origin. I can sue you for having blue eyes. It will (eventually) be thrown out, but I can file suit.

Ok, first there is no such thing as a 'Justice' spell. Magic doesn't work that way and even if it did, no mage in their right mind is going to pay the essence cost and take on the karma debt for the actions of a third party. That's just nuts. Who would this outside entity be? And why on Earth would you take responsibility for their actions?

This paragraph is self-cobtradictory. The spell calls for the Solicitor's and Hekate's Karmic debt to be paid immediately. The only way it couldn't work is if there was no Karma. The worst that could happen to Nikki for such a spell would be that her own Karmic debt would come due, which was practically nil at the time if the spells casting. Further, I never said Nikki was in her right mind while casting the spell, since she did it as a near last resort while still in danger.

Whateley's Neutrality agreement is a gentleman's agreement between heroes and villains. Neither side will attack the school, nor attempt to use the students and families as leverage. Anyone breaking this rule means the other heroes and villains put aside their differences and hunt down the perpetrator. This agreement has nothing to do with any government and is not a 'get out of jail free' pass.

This is a civil suit, it isn't an action by the government, it's a threat to get leverage over a student by a known associate of villains. Mimeo could not have been a student at Whateley if this was possible.

So could they have punished her earlier? For what? They weren't sure

It actually wasn't the black hand, at least not the canonical version Nikki created the spell on the spot. Not knowing has never stopped them before, with the exception of The Don/Hekate. I think it was a straight up misinterpretation that Hekate's would have died, but it's been canonized, so that's crying over spilled milk.

Do you KNOW that Mrs. Carson hasn't been in contact with Nikki's mom and dad about this? Do you KNOW that the Solicitor is behind this? Do you KNOW that someone didn't file this on behalf of the Solicitor specifically to make Nikki feel the heat? Do you KNOW that there's even a lawsuit or alternatively whether the funding is being put in escrow for when she graduates or learns her lesson?

Those scenarios make less sense than the current scenario.

Finally, ask yourselves this question. You're in Mrs. Carson's shoes. What do you do with a teenage mage who's become arrogant by her spirit, and is powerful enough to be a threat to the whole world? She's used forbidden magic. She needs to be taught a lesson. For the sake of many, you dare not tell her that Hekate is still alive, but you also dare not let her be prosecuted for a murder that really didn't happen (she has a DFA tag, after all). Now what would YOU do?

1. you realize she's a teenager, and only Augnhadhail has shown being arrogant. Without Aunghadhail, the situation would sort itself out.
2. She used magic in a life threatening situation, the results from the Solicitor are enough to show it was forbidden, so you punish her immediately upon returning to Whateley. You don't wait around. And you don't tell her it wasn't self defense (assigning her a 25 page magical law paper would let her discover it wasn't self defense, if that's actually the case).
3. I've not seen a good argument as to why Nikki shouldn't be told that Hekate is alive.

What would I do? I would bring in Nikki's supporters, TK+Dr Bellows, Foob, The Magical Arts Faculty. I would brief them on the Hekate situation, letting them know that they need to prevent Fey from going out for vengeance. And then I would tell Nikki with TK present. She would have already been punished, and should be feeling remorse by this time (especially if it's revealed that the simulacrum died, since that was an unexpected effect).
I would not create a situation where it's a plausible scenario for Fey to try and recreate a Sidhe Kingdom on the ruins of WA. At minimum I would've contacted Dr. Bellows to see if Nikki could handle it without going Dark. And saying that happened but wasn't shown isn't good enough.

ThaleDison wrote: This paragraph is self-cobtradictory.

Did you think I was talking about corn? And you missed the important part to whit:

Ok, first there is no such thing as a 'Justice' spell. Magic doesn't work that way...

This is not speculation or conjuncture on my part, but clarification via WOG.

ThaleDison wrote: This is a civil suit, it isn't an action by the government, it's a threat to get leverage over a student by a known associate of villains.

Civil suits are enforced by the government, through government channels.

ThaleDison wrote: I think it was a straight up misinterpretation that Hekate's would have died, but it's been canonized, so that's crying over spilled milk.

It was not a misinterpretation and it was not canonized after the fact. Nikki's intention was that Hekate suffer a brutal, painful death.

ThaleDison wrote: I would not create a situation where it's a plausible scenario for Fey to try and recreate a Sidhe Kingdom on the ruins of WA. At minimum I would've contacted Dr. Bellows to see if Nikki could handle it without going Dark. And saying that happened but wasn't shown isn't good enough.

Speaking as a writer, putting in this amount of detail initially would require a novel, and not a short one.
Going through the plan, talking to everyone, spelling out every detail, relationship, argument etc, would be a long process. and I don't think most of us would be very interested in it.
It was stated that she talked to the directors, and various faculty, we can assume that she talked to Bellows, and maybe there will be a flashback to it.
But remember, Fey is not E.E. or Elrods character, so they're going to be using her from a different perspective, and from trying to write with another persons character as the main POV, it's not easy, and it usually doesn't sound nice to the fans.
So you're going to have to be satisfied with what has been posted so far and hope that things are cleared up later.

I think you can easily say nothing was done immediately after Christmas because it takes time for Carson to consult with the board of directors and the faculty. Now does that explain why it took 4 months? Well, sure, it could.

E. E. Nalley wrote:

ThaleDison wrote: This paragraph is self-cobtradictory.

Did you think I was talking about corn? And you missed the important part to whit:

Ok, first there is no such thing as a 'Justice' spell. Magic doesn't work that way...

This is not speculation or conjuncture on my part, but clarification via WOG.

ThaleDison wrote: This is a civil suit, it isn't an action by the government, it's a threat to get leverage over a student by a known associate of villains.

Civil suits are enforced by the government, through government channels.

ThaleDison wrote: I think it was a straight up misinterpretation that Hekate's would have died, but it's been canonized, so that's crying over spilled milk.

It was not a misinterpretation and it was not canonized after the fact. Nikki's intention was that Hekate suffer a brutal, painful death.

I understand the part about Justice spells being undoable was WOG, but it was never shown in universe (I woukd argue that it's been strongly implied the opposite is true), and it's completely inconsistent with a magic system that also carries Karmic debt.

Apparently Loophole will be able to violate neutrality on a whim in the future, good to know. (Because it won't be her, it'll be the government). I'm surprised the Chessmaster didn't use this tactic.

I have to accept your last statement as WOG, but it violates "show don't tell", from what we've been shown it's not a valid interpretation.

This story would have worked better without Nikki or Ayla's POV, it would've been more effective as a purely Carson POV (or maybe a Carson/Horton/Bellows POV) where the facts were actually laid bare.

ThaleDison wrote: I understand the part about Justice spells being undoable was WOG, but it was never shown in universe (I woukd argue that it's been strongly implied the opposite is true), and it's completely inconsistent with a magic system that also carries Karmic debt.

Apparently Loophole will be able to violate neutrality on a whim in the future, good to know. (Because it won't be her, it'll be the government). I'm surprised the Chessmaster didn't use this tactic.

I have to accept your last statement as WOG, but it violates "show don't tell", from what we've been shown it's not a valid interpretation.

This story would have worked better without Nikki or Ayla's POV, it would've been more effective as a purely Carson POV (or maybe a Carson/Horton/Bellows POV) where the facts were actually laid bare.

Are you deliberately trying to provoke me? Because you're doing a smash up job of it. YOU misunderstand and ask questions which I try to answer for you so you can understand then YOU want to argue about how YOUR misunderstanding is more correct than the facts I'm trying to give you. It DOES NOT violate what has been shown before YOU are misunderstanding and projecting that error as 'correct'.

ThaleDison wrote: This story would have worked better without Nikki or Ayla's POV, it would've been more effective as a purely Carson POV (or maybe a Carson/Horton/Bellows POV) where the facts were actually laid bare.

I doubt that. A pure Carson POV is pretty intimidating to write. She's an eighty year old superhero. That's a heck of a character to write for. I also think Ayla's POV is critical. If anything, there wasn't enough of it given that we know his duplicity will at some point be discovered.